rec.autos.simulators

What, the fact that the cops could be worse is supposed to be a
positive aspect of the police?
--

"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in pursuit
of justice is no virtue."

In the beginning, but unfortunately the role of too many police ecomes
one of focusing on motor vehicle situations rather than patroling
neighborhoods.  That is not simply the cop on the beat's fault, but rather
the politicos and higher ups that view the motorists as cash cows
for revenue generation.

: If you knew may officers I think that you would
: find the power freaks or incomptentes are in a very small minority.

But even one is too many, and I've met several.

: Police are doing a job most of us are unwilling to do. The arrest real
: crminals that shoot at them. They pick drunks off the street. They
: collect random dead bodies.  

All part of the job.

: Your contacts with the police seem to be colored from being stopped
: when you are breaking the law. I am supposing when you are remembering
: a time when you were stopped for somthing like speeding and didn't like
: the cop's attitude.  Imagine, for a moment, the same incident from the
: cops viewpoint. They may have just come from an accident where they
: pulled a dead child from a crashed car.

What difference should that be.  The bottom line, at least as
it realtes to speed enforcement, is that most speed limits (highway
especially) are unrealisticly low and serve as revenue generators.
See the January Car & Driver article by Patrick Bedard on the reality
of speed limits versus the insurance industry (often backed up
by law enforcement) safety crap.  

: Sociable ***s in our society rarely come into contact with law
: enforcement or the criminal justice system. This is a system designed
: to hande the exceptions of society. It is an unfortunate artifact that
: we have bizzare laws like speed limits that are artificially low that
: cause those of us who are not criminals in the true sense to become
: enmired in the criminal justice system.  

Ecactly the point...when artifical speed limits bearing no reality
to what should be exist, then we all take on an attitude of: The
hell with the cops, they are just going along with the easy way of
being productive.  Take one drunk off the road is far more beneficial
to all of us than the generation of 100 speeding tickets (IMHO).

: There are, in our society, as in all others that are or have been,
: people who will not or cannot act as responsible ***s. We need the
: police to deal with these miscreants for us, especially if we are
: unwilling to participate in the solutions to these problems ourselves.

Again, right on and further justification of why society views police
today in such a bad light.  I have never met anyone that has been
ticketed for speeding who honestly believed they were operating their
vehicle in a dangerous fashion.  I'm taking herre of the typical
ticket for doing 70 in a 55...or even doing 80 in a 55.  Today's vehicles
far surpass the roadworthyness of older vehicles and yet most states
still impose totally unrealistic highway speed limits.  This may sound
elitist, but if one is uncapable of driving any properly maintained auto
at highway speeds of up to 70 or 80 mph (daylight hours) then that
individual really doesn't belong on the interstates.  If you don't feel
comfortable at those highway speeds, then either take alternative
roadways or at least stay to the extreme right lane (how many times
have you encountered the turtle driver who refuses to stay to the right)?

: If you were to read the California criminal code you would find that
: most of the things that are illegal are things that you don't want
: people doing. Hitting people, maiming people, killing people, stealing
: and other anti-social acts are illegal, as well they should be.

Agreed.  Ditto here on the east coast.

: Given that you would, I hope, wish to live in a safe polite society,
: and given that there are people who are unwilling or unable to follow
: the very simple dictums of behavior called out in the penal code, you
: will always need police.

Agree again.

: I have found that in our society we are in fact very lucky to have the
: quality of people we do in police work and the armed forces. It is sad
: that the ocassional bad-apple gets all the press. Try to reflect on the
: positive aspects of police in our communities instead of getting pissed
: off because some cop stopped you when you were, after all, breaking the
: law.

But we all should get pissed off for the continued focus on speed enforcement
laws rather than on enforcement of those laws that will make society better
for all.  Additionally, speed enforcement is often very discriminitory
in who gets stopped (i.e. BMWs and sports cars versus typical sedans and
mini-vans doing the exact same speeds.)
--
Cheers, ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Just my $0.02 worth, plus tax.

        - Tom
--
--

Now I have nothing against cops.. a good friend of mine IS a cop..
BUT.. When cops target young males driving perfectly safe, going along
with the flow of traffic, ESPECIALLY young BLACK males..  that pisses
me off.

If you are going to pull over the young black kid, you better pull
over the old jewish mother putting on makeup passing him in the right
lane.

And to tell ytou the  truth, most cops will not do it.

I also think that PA and MD are absolutely dispicable about their lack
of listining to the public about changing the speeding limits in the
states.  They are speedtraps, it is dishonest, and just plain dirty.

True I dont want to be shot for speeding, but I dont want a ticket
which costs 150 face value, plus makes my insurance go up 100 on both
my car and my  bike which after 10 years gputs me 2k in the hole.

A speeding ticket should be the 50 bucks, and thats it.  NOT 2150

and anyone can do the math, that IS what a speeding ticket will cost
you.

And if a cop tailgates me and I am in the right lanes, I WILL slam my
brakes.  I will sue his ass till he is out on the street fighting with
the homeless for a bite of food.

Tailgating is ***ing DANGEROUS, speeding is NOT what kills, its
stupidity and/or alchohol in almost EVERY case.

        Usually if I get tailgated by some ass, I just let go of the gas and
slow down without using the brake, they can pass me if they don't like it.
        My question is how low below the speed limit are you allowed to go
before a cop would pull you over?

Eric
--
Eric Lorenzo

<http://rintintin.colorado.edu:10000/>

1995 Dodge Neon
1969 Dodge Polara

"Anyone who drives slower than you is an idiot; anyone who drives faster than you is a maniac." - George Carlin (paraphrased)

: >Again, right on and further justification of why society views police
: >today in such a bad light.  I have never met anyone that has been
: >ticketed for speeding who honestly believed they were operating their
: >vehicle in a dangerous fashion.  I'm taking herre of the typical
: >ticket for doing 70 in a 55...or even doing 80 in a 55.  Today's vehicles
: >far surpass the roadworthyness of older vehicles and yet most states
: >still impose totally unrealistic highway speed limits.  This may sound
: >elitist, but if one is uncapable of driving any properly maintained auto
: >at highway speeds of up to 70 or 80 mph (daylight hours) then that
: >individual really doesn't belong on the interstates.  If you don't feel
: >comfortable at those highway speeds, then either take alternative
: >roadways or at least stay to the extreme right lane (how many times
: >have you encountered the turtle driver who refuses to stay to the right)?

: While I'm all for increased speed limits in some areas, it's important to
: consider two things:  First, regardless of driving ability, there are many
: motor vehicles which simply are not safe at these speeds.  Even if we
: exclude vehicles not capable of maintaining 80mph (like my trusty old VW
: Bus, may it rest in peace.), ridiculously lax (or nonexistent in some
: places) motor vehicle inspections mean that many vehicles aren't safe at
: normal city speeds, much less 80mph.  IMHO, we need a STRICT motor vehicle
: inspection.  However, with the current trend toward giving things back to
: the states, I don't think this is going to happen.  Is a state with strict
: inspections going to forbid uninspected vehicles from other states (which
: have no inspection) from travelling on their roadways?  Of course not.

The truth is, however, that mechanical failure or problems have almost no
relationship to auto accidents.  If they did, your weworry of poorly
maintained vehicles would have more credibility, but the facts don't
bear it out.

:  Do
: cops have the time to do roadside inspections whenever they stop a vehicle?
: No.

Nore should we be harrased by such roadside stops.  I am perfectly willing
to be responsible for my vehicles.  Odds are any poorly maintained
vehicle would involve others in an accident of major consequences and
rarely with speed as a factor.

:  Unfortuantely, I don't see a non-federal solution to this problem.  The
: second thing to consider is the dismally low level of driver competence we
: currently have.  Getting a license should not be a 10-question multiple
: choice test and a quick drive around the block.  There should be a difficult
: test where you are required to show knowldege of traffic laws and safety,
: control of a vehicle under adverse conditions, and the common sense that
: should be required before you're allowed to drive 4,000 lbs of steel around
: at 80mph.

I couldn't agree more with that point.

: In NH and NY (the only two states where I've seen the driver
: testing program in action), the tests are a complete joke.  IMHO, the lack
: of good driver education and evaluation programs are our biggest traffic
: safety problem.  

:
Add NJ to the joke list.  My son and daughter both took their driver's
test over the last few years.  They NEVER left the inspection compound's
property.  What a joke.
--
Cheers, ---------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think that cops in general probably have a neurotic need for power that
they couldn't get any other way than to get their bronze badge.  I truely
believe this to some extent for most cops.  Sure there may be that 1 in a
100 that just wants to serve the public and protect and all that, but I
really think that they all need to have this power over people.  Yes I
have a problem with authority.  The problem is I don't respect somebodys
power over me unless I feel they should have power over me.

This brings up another point.  Maybe we need to have stricker liscencing
in this country.  How many times have you seen an elderly person causing a
dangerous situation by driving way to slow, or not being aware of his
surroundings.  Had I not been paying close attention to my driving and the
road I would have had several accidents due to elderly unawarness.  I DO
NOT drive fast where I can't see far enough to stop, or where something
could jump out in fromt of me.  I do however speed when I feel it is safe,
and I have control of my car.

I can't believe we let kids drive just because they are 16.  As I look
back I know I wasn't a resposible driver until I was well into my 20s
(when I started racing motorcycles and cars).  Now not everybody needs to
be a racing driver capable of recovering from any mishap (they can't even
do that).  But after learning where the limits are and how to react to
unwanted oversteer, I am SO much safer.

As a 16 year old male I wanted to find these limits, and the easiest way
was on public roads.  Maybe it's like sex, you want to find out a about
it, and if nobody ever talks to you about it, you might make some mistakes
while experimenting.

We need strickter training and we need to be able to take liscenses away
from the elderly (I know that's cruel, but what is more cruel, that or
killing some young woman just starting her life because grandma shouldn't
have been behind the wheel?)

O.K. bye

                                ----Steve

Stephen Amadei
Dandy Connections
Atlantic City, NJ

It depends where you live, really.  In Cleveland, large city, it can take
the police a half hour or more to get to your house.  In the suburb I
live in, it's five seconds.  Run a red light and there's three cop cars,
a helicopter, and news teams from two major TV networks on the scene.
In Cleveland, they really don't give a rat's ass, they're too busy trying
to break down another crack house on West 88th or something.

Funny, a house that sells for $40k in Cleveland would go for $120-150k
in my suburb, and I live in one of the cheapest suburbs... I guess
people value their right to live peacefully.

...and those that can't afford to live here, buy shotguns.

--
ayjayninetwothreeatclevelandpointfreenetpointedu (WFO)

    "First of all, torque, from a driver's perspective,
          to use the vernacular, RULES!"

Although I can see why this might sound like a good idea, just take a
minute to think about the results.  Several city police forces are
under orders NOT to chase stolen vehicles!!  This is because they do
not want to take the chance of being sued out of existence.  If they
were in an accident involving a fatality can you imagine what would
happen?  The family would sue the police department for every penny
they could get.

Now, if you want to play the blame game, who's fault is the above
situation?  Even if the cop makes a human error in his driving while
chasing a felon.  It's the person who is fleeing's fault!  How could
you possibly blame someone for trying to catch a criminal.  That's a
police officer's job for chrissakes!

The world is not always fair but we do the best we can.  If you are an
innocent bystander and your car is damaged, sue the BAD GUYS!  Would
you rather restrict the police from doing their job?

And as far as speeding goes, do you think the police passed the
speeding laws??  Perhaps you think they enforce them only to collect
revenue.  Do you think the cop on the street is some great entrepenuer
who is trying to raise revenue for his company?  No!  He is doing his
job and enforcing the law, laws that we and our representatives
passed, not the police!  We are in a democracy not a police state, but
we do need people to enforce the laws that WE pass.

And just because you disagree with a law does not give you the right
to break it.  If you disagree with it, try to get it changed!  I think
speeding laws are ridiculous too, but if I get stopped I say yes sir
and I pay my fine.  If you happen to decide *** is ok does that
give you the right to kill someone?  

Unfortunately, there are bad people out there.  As a democracy we pass
laws about what is right and wrong.  The police just do their job.
Maybe they are sometimes arrogant but do you want some kiss ass out
there protecting you?

Sorry for the long post, I just read this thread and I guess I had a
lot to say.

.
..I don't feel that this is either an accurate or a productive comment.
..Most police officers are in the business because they genuinely want to
..help the community. If you knew may officers I think that you would
..find the power freaks or incomptentes are in a very small minority. As
..with any profession, the quality of the staff will vary widely. I have
..gone to excellent mechanics and to shitty mechanics. We all prefer to
..go the the good ones, but we have all gone to bad ones.
.
.I think that cops in general probably have a neurotic need for power that
.they couldn't get any other way than to get their bronze badge.  I truely
.believe this to some extent for most cops.  Sure there may be that 1 in a
.100 that just wants to serve the public and protect and all that, but I
.really think that they all need to have this power over people.  Yes I
.have a problem with authority.  The problem is I don't respect somebodys
.power over me unless I feel they should have power over me.

They generally don't have any power over you. Tehy're out there as agents
in law enforcement. I agree that some are brain-damaged but no profession
is without brain-damaged people. Cops who stop and harrass people without
cause are themselves breaking the law. One who views police only as people
who get badges in an effort to control the lives of others has a narrow
view indeed. I'd suggest that politicians, especially liberal ones,
are much more likely to have the 'control neuroses' than are cops- they
*make* the laws.
.
..Your contacts with the police seem to be colored from being stopped
..when you are breaking the law. I am supposing when you are remembering
..a time when you were stopped for somthing like speeding and didn't like
..the cop's attitude.  Imagine, for a moment, the same incident from the
..cops viewpoint. They may have just come from an accident where they
..pulled a dead child from a crashed car.
.
.This brings up another point.  Maybe we need to have stricker liscencing
.in this country.  How many times have you seen an elderly person causing a
.dangerous situation by driving way to slow, or not being aware of his
.surroundings.  Had I not been paying close attention to my driving and the
.road I would have had several accidents due to elderly unawarness.  I DO
.NOT drive fast where I can't see far enough to stop, or where something
.could jump out in fromt of me.  I do however speed when I feel it is safe,
.and I have control of my car.

Ah. But since your idea of 'safe' may not match the law, any cop who stops you
is doing so becuase he's/she's has an obvious need to control you...

.
.I can't believe we let kids drive just because they are 16.  As I look
.back I know I wasn't a resposible driver until I was well into my 20s
.(when I started racing motorcycles and cars).  Now not everybody needs to
.be a racing driver capable of recovering from any mishap (they can't even
.do that).  But after learning where the limits are and how to react to
.unwanted oversteer, I am SO much safer.
.

.As a 16 year old male I wanted to find these limits, and the easiest way
.was on public roads.  Maybe it's like sex, you want to find out a about
.it, and if nobody ever talks to you about it, you might make some mistakes
.while experimenting.
.
.We need strickter training and we need to be able to take liscenses away
.from the elderly (I know that's cruel, but what is more cruel, that or
.killing some young woman just starting her life because grandma shouldn't
.have been behind the wheel?)
.

 We do need strictertraining. But you just implied that kids shouldn't
 be given licenses just because they've turned 16. Then only a few sentences
 later, you said we should be able to take someone's license just because they
*reach* a certain age.  hey...wait a minute...you're not thinking of becoming
 a liberal politician...;-)=)

Bill Edison

.O.K. bye
.

Neither is substantially true, though the latter is less far-out.

For the obligatory example, consider laws against consensual sex.
Not that I'm advocating it, but *** (consensual) is still a
felony in California.  Why?  I can name many other flagrantly
unnecessary victimless "crimes" proscribed by law, but don't feel
like rehashing the whole spiel right now.

I reject the notion that a society whose only m***compass is a
bloated collection of legal proscriptions will be a safe, polite
society.  The law should deal with the most flagrant abuses and
offenses, not matters of etiquette.

Police show up after the fact to investigate the crime.  They have
no legal responsibility to protect citizens, regardless of the
motto on the side of the car.  If you are counting on the law and
the police to protect you from wrongdoing, you've placed your faith
where it does not belong.  I think that most police make a diligent
effort to investigate crimes and bring criminals to justice, but
then the ***ers and rapists are released from prison in less
than three years so we can make more room in the prisons for pot
smokers.

-- David Pletcher
--
** ignore below this line -- automatically appended keywords **
kiddie-*** nuclear terrorist AK-47 *** PCP ammonium nitrate

: If you happened to believe that slavery was wrong, did that give you
: the right to aid and abet runaway slaves?  If you happened to believe
: that racial discrimination was wrong, did that give you (assuming you
: were a minority) the right to sit in the front of the bus?  Citizens
: have a right to ignore bad laws, and a duty to disobey imm***laws.
: Those who whiningly repeat that same assertion all the time, that we
: have no right to disobey bad laws, are contemptible cowards, of the
: same breed as the death camp guards who claimed they were "just
: following orders."

True, but the civil rights marchers were prepared to pay the penalty for
civil disobediance.  And they did -- they went to jail.  People
advocating breaking traffic laws seem to think they should be immune from
penalties just because they don't like the laws.