rec.autos.simulators

Looks like we were right about Papy :(

MadDAW

Looks like we were right about Papy :(

by MadDAW » Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:12:40

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Q: Where do you think the racing genre is heading?

Rich: "I think that games that feature 'just racing' aren't enough for a lot
of people in this era of gnat-like attention spans, and that's particularly
true when it comes to the console crowd. That's why I think that you're
going to see more and more games like Driver and Grand Theft Auto - where
driving and racing is a part of the game, but not the whole experience.

"That's why I think that as time goes on you're going to see fewer and fewer
'pure' racing titles; and as someone who would be quite happy spending the
rest of his days working on sequels to Grand Prix Legends, I think that's a
shame, but the bottom line is that you need to be willing to change with the
market or else you're done. It takes an enormous amount of money to make a
game these days, and quite understandably game publishers want to make games
that appeal to the broadest part of the market so that they can maximize the
return on their investment.

"So although I don't necessarily see a bright future in terms of where the
'racing sim' market is headed, I think the sky's the limit as far as the
mainstream 'racing game' area goes. I think that Grand Theft Auto 3 is one
of the best games ever made, and I also enjoyed the Driver games quite a
bit. There is certainly no lack of creativity in the genre these days  and I
don't see it growing stagnant any time soon."

MadDAWG

Schoone

Looks like we were right about Papy :(

by Schoone » Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:55:29

I think like he states that a company has to go where the market is, and
like it or not its the arcade style console games that sell to the masses.
There is just not a large enough sim racing market to allow firms to be
profitable.
These things all go in cycles however, after the console market dies down a
bit I suspect to see the more sim type titles come back to help tide these
companies over until the next big thing.


John Pancoas

Looks like we were right about Papy :(

by John Pancoas » Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:12:36

  Exactly.  One thing I always get a kick out of, in the flight sim crowd,
is the "Woe is me, it's the death of flight sims this
year"....................been hearing that yearly since 1988
now................

John


> I think like he states that a company has to go where the market is, and
> like it or not its the arcade style console games that sell to the masses.
> There is just not a large enough sim racing market to allow firms to be
> profitable.
> These things all go in cycles however, after the console market dies down
a
> bit I suspect to see the more sim type titles come back to help tide these
> companies over until the next big thing.



> > http://www.gamezone.com/news/09_24_02_09_01AM.htm

> > Q: Where do you think the racing genre is heading?

> > Rich: "I think that games that feature 'just racing' aren't enough for a
> lot
> > of people in this era of gnat-like attention spans, and that's
> particularly
> > true when it comes to the console crowd. That's why I think that you're
> > going to see more and more games like Driver and Grand Theft Auto -
where
> > driving and racing is a part of the game, but not the whole experience.

> > "That's why I think that as time goes on you're going to see fewer and
> fewer
> > 'pure' racing titles; and as someone who would be quite happy spending
the
> > rest of his days working on sequels to Grand Prix Legends, I think
that's
> a
> > shame, but the bottom line is that you need to be willing to change with
> the
> > market or else you're done. It takes an enormous amount of money to make
a
> > game these days, and quite understandably game publishers want to make
> games
> > that appeal to the broadest part of the market so that they can maximize
> the
> > return on their investment.

> > "So although I don't necessarily see a bright future in terms of where
the
> > 'racing sim' market is headed, I think the sky's the limit as far as the
> > mainstream 'racing game' area goes. I think that Grand Theft Auto 3 is
one
> > of the best games ever made, and I also enjoyed the Driver games quite a
> > bit. There is certainly no lack of creativity in the genre these days
and
> I
> > don't see it growing stagnant any time soon."

> > MadDAWG

Gord

Looks like we were right about Papy :(

by Gord » Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:18:50


I NEVER have, nor EVER will buy or play any console game. They do not
interest me whatsoever.
But I HAVE bought every version of "Nascar Racing" since the first one so I
guess they will be losing my business when they decide to cater to the
consoles.

Haqsa

Looks like we were right about Papy :(

by Haqsa » Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:26:12

Sim racing features can be snuck into arcade games and vice versa.
NR2002 and F1 2002 both include an assortment of driving aids and other
"training wheels" that allow people to play it like an arcade game, in
fact in F1 2002 I think it defaults to having all that stuff on.  So
developers could make a game with a good story and an arcadey driving
model, and include a *** racing mode as an added feature.  Best of
both worlds.


MadDAW

Looks like we were right about Papy :(

by MadDAW » Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:28:49


Well I'm not sure I'm ready to go for hte whole market beeing dead. Just
Papy. Hopefully someone else setups up to the plate. Its just sad to see
them go to that stuff. I know thats were the money is, but then again there
is good money in crack too and I don't start selling that. lol

MadDAWG

Cong

Looks like we were right about Papy :(

by Cong » Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:51:34

What Sierra fails to understand is that the console market is a lot more
crowded and therefore competitive then niche markets like automotive or
flight sims.

Instead of competing with two companies they will now compete with a hundred
maybe two. Papyrus missed the boat by not developing additional content for
GPL, CART and took so long between Early Nascar updates that they created
competitors. When CART got in bed with Microsoft Papy built GPL and then all
but abandoned the product.

In my opinion Papyrus was a victim of poor management and lack of vision.


> Sim racing features can be snuck into arcade games and vice versa.
> NR2002 and F1 2002 both include an assortment of driving aids and other
> "training wheels" that allow people to play it like an arcade game, in
> fact in F1 2002 I think it defaults to having all that stuff on.  So
> developers could make a game with a good story and an arcadey driving
> model, and include a *** racing mode as an added feature.  Best of
> both worlds.



> > I think like he states that a company has to go where the market is,
> and
> > like it or not its the arcade style console games that sell to the
> masses.
> > There is just not a large enough sim racing market to allow firms to
> be
> > profitable.
> > These things all go in cycles however, after the console market dies
> down a
> > bit I suspect to see the more sim type titles come back to help tide
> these
> > companies over until the next big thing.

MadDAW

Looks like we were right about Papy :(

by MadDAW » Fri, 27 Sep 2002 19:00:36

Bingo!

MadDAWG

Joachim Trens

Looks like we were right about Papy :(

by Joachim Trens » Fri, 27 Sep 2002 22:20:30

Papy had more of a vision than anyone else - their dedication to realism and
online *** is unparalleled and has revolutionised sim racing throughout
an entire decade.

If Papy had 'shortcomings' then those were only the marketing side as Papy
made products they themselves and other *** simmers liked, but they
didn't cater much to the vastly bigger market of the more casual players.

And perhaps that Papy was a bit conservative when it came to paying
royalties. But that's also understandable, since their products aren't
designed for that arcade mass market (except their Nascar series) and so of
course they can't be sure huge investments for royalties will pay off in the
end.

Achim


Jussi 'Igor' Koukk

Looks like we were right about Papy :(

by Jussi 'Igor' Koukk » Fri, 27 Sep 2002 20:49:28

On Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:20:30 -0000, "Joachim Trensz"

Is that angry mob coming this way perhaps a full field of N2002
drivers? <g>
--
- Igor -

Gerald Moo

Looks like we were right about Papy :(

by Gerald Moo » Sat, 28 Sep 2002 00:11:11

Yeah, the problem with chasing the money is that everybody else gets
there first and by the time you show up, the gold rush is over.

I'm guessing that if EA didn't have the exclusive license to NASCAR,
we would see Papyrus happily churning out titles indefinitely.

Gerald


> What Sierra fails to understand is that the console market is a lot more
> crowded and therefore competitive then niche markets like automotive or
> flight sims.

> Instead of competing with two companies they will now compete with a hundred
> maybe two. Papyrus missed the boat by not developing additional content for
> GPL, CART and took so long between Early Nascar updates that they created
> competitors. When CART got in bed with Microsoft Papy built GPL and then all
> but abandoned the product.

> In my opinion Papyrus was a victim of poor management and lack of vision.

Phoenix Knig

Looks like we were right about Papy :(

by Phoenix Knig » Sat, 28 Sep 2002 01:32:58


> These things all go in cycles however, after the console market dies down a
> bit I suspect to see the more sim type titles come back to help tide these
> companies over until the next big thing.

I think you're right. The PS2, X-Box and GameCube are all relitively
new to the market, so naturally there's a lot of hype around them.
Publishers seem desperate to squeeze as much out of these consoles as
fast as they can, but once everybody's bought one, and once we get a
tide of shit games for them (as happened to the PS1), I'm sure they'll
start to work harder on the PC market again.

Until the next 'next gen' console is released...

MadDAW

Looks like we were right about Papy :(

by MadDAW » Sat, 28 Sep 2002 02:09:43

I saw on Tech TV a few weeks ago that Microsoft has the X box 2 basicly
ready, but are waiting on something new like a PS3 to come out before they
release it.

MadDAWG

Cong

Looks like we were right about Papy :(

by Cong » Sat, 28 Sep 2002 02:28:43

No they won't. Look how many producers, publishers have gone under in the
last two years. In large part because of multiplayer the PC will support one
or two games per genre...

Deathmatch: Unreal Tournament, Quake, Counterstrike
Strategy: Starcraft, Warcraft, Ages
RPG: Diablo, Final Fantasy
Flight: Sturmovik, Falcon
Race: Nascar, GPL

And then there is theSims        sigh

This means that unless your part of the dirty dozen that makes it to the top
your gonna starve.

With consoles you have the ability to mix genres and create games for known
platforms. Metal Gear, Grand Theft, Devil may cry, Mario games cost a
fraction of what a pc game costs and you can port it to 3 or 4 platforms and
then feed off of addons for years...

There is a reason Microsoft built a console machine....

How it should have been:

1-Niche producers like Papyrus should not have sold to companies like
Vivendi and Microsoft.

2-Persistent worlds and monthly fees should be part of any niche product

3-Addons should be a major part of the economic model

4-Pricing for simulation products should not be anything like other PC
Games.

GPL2: $149.95
Monthly fee is $8.00
Carset and season pack for 1972  $34.95

One year revenue: appr. $180.00 vs     $6.00

Jeffrey Haa

Looks like we were right about Papy :(

by Jeffrey Haa » Sat, 28 Sep 2002 03:09:25

On Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:12:40 -0400, "MadDAWG"


>rest of his days working on sequels to Grand Prix Legends, I think that's a
>shame, but the bottom line is that you need to be willing to change with the

Hey, at least he mentioned GPL ...... David Kaemmer must be spinning
in his Barber Dodge car about now ....

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