rec.autos.simulators

Those of you who think I'm slagging off GPL as some kind of disaster have
not gotten the picture.  I think in terms of attempting to simulate, for
example,  independant suspension movements or crash dynamics, it is
unparalleled.  The sim is beautiful to look at, the sounds are nice, the
menus are very elegantly and efficiently done, and the cars look fantastic
and yes the experience is rather visceral.

The problem lies with how the physical control device inputs are handled.
The steering maintains the same sensitivity at high and low speed.  This is
just not right.  It is an extremely glaring oversight.  The braking input is
just not right either.  This problem is not peculiar to GPL, it is inherent
in all Papyrus sims  -- I'll say it again -- ALL PAPYRUS SIMS.  .

The physical control inputs of GP2 are far superior to any sim you can buy
now.  Goeff Crammond's GP2 solves the problem of sensitive high speed
steering inputs by allowing you to reduce the sensitivity as the car speeds
up.   His braking inputs are far more responsive and firm.  With GPL, brake
inputs are mushy and so it is more or less a matter of determining how many
centimetres of braking you should be applying.  It's hard to explain but
GP2's braking feels real in terms of my actual experience of driving a real
car.  Maybe someone on this newsgroup can explain more technically the
braking sensation differences between the two sims.

I think there are a lot of Papyrus simmers on this newsgroup who have never
experienced GP2 and so really cannot make a comparative analyisis of the
control input issues that I am bringing up.  Furthermore, I know a lot you
you have been telling me that this is only a demo, but I have this gut
feeling that Papyrus will not correct this problem, because they haven't
done so in any of their other sims.

I certainly prefer driving the GP2 model, but only because its a lot easier
than the way Papyrus does things (I think the papyrus way is more realistic
however) this makes it easier to concentrate on racing than actually
driving. OTOH for hotlapping I prefer Papyrus as the concentration with
these games is more on the actual driving than the racing.

I suppose it just depends on what you want from a sim - the racing or the
driving?

Steve

I'd also like to note for the audience that, in addition to your
omniscient expertise in auto racing sims, suspension physics and
feedback, what others SHOULD think according to "Charles Mak", and the
hearts and minds of sim designers everywhere, a brief scan of your
contributions to humanity as recorded in DejaNews reveals -- your
modesty becomes you, Charles! -- an equally awe-inspiring abd
authoritative (not to mention authoritarian!) command of such diverse
subjects as:  

F1 (the "real" one)
hockey
hockey sims
racism in hockey sims
cricket
cricket sims
aircraft sims
sports sims
naval sims
naval doctrine, tactics, and history
interior design
hypochondria
scuba diving (well, you admitted you're a novice at that, but I'm sure
you'll be as skilled as the best in, say, fif*** minutes or so...)

How could I ever have had the temerity to question your absolute
knowledge of something as simple as motorsports sims, when you are
obviously the breathing embodiment of the Renaissance man?

I am a convert. Please spill more of your abundant wisdom from that
glowing cornucopia...

Bart Brown

Maybe you can explain to me how a car turns farther with the same input at a
slower speed as apposed to a higher speed.  There are no wings on these cars
to interact with grip, so turning should be near the same anyway.  And as
for the brakes, in the 60s, the brakes sucked!  I agree with you though, GP2
has got alot of things going right for it, but you won't catch me turning
steering help on on that sim, I like the feel of it just like it is!

<GP2 vs. GPL troll bait snipped>

If you want to compare to sims when it comes down to control, steering
and throttle and braking, compare F1RS and GPL.  To date they are the
only ones that I think have the "pheel" right.  While I don't know that
much about the physics engine in F1RS, I do know that GPL has a "real"
physics engine.  GP2 doesn't have a realistic physics engine and
therefore only "feels" and doesn't quite "pheel".  But, if you enjoy GP2
fine, play GP2 and wait for GP3.  For those that are looking for a real
simulation of driving a high peformance racing machine, stick with GPL.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Seems to me your just shit at racing sims.

You cannot compare any sim like F1GP2, F1RS etc to GPL. They are completly
different cars with completly different handling.

1998 F1  - V.light cars, V.Big tyres, V.Big Wings for huge grip.
1967 F1 - V.Heavy cars, Skinny grooved tyres, NO WINGS

 1998 F1 = Plenty of high speed grip = no 4-wheel drifts, occasional
oversteer due to power over grip at low speeds.

 1967 F1= Only grip from tyres + plently of power = arse all grip = plenty
of careful 4-wheel drift.

Therefore stop thinking that cause you may be able to drive a car in F1GP
you can automatically drive a car in GPL. Go away and practice forget
everything about todays F1 and stop spamming your ***in this newsgroup.

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:32:39 -0500, "George Buhr II"

When wheels are rotating really fast, they develop what we call
"rotational inertia".  You can reproduce it with a stick going through
the center of a bicycle wheel.  If you'd try and move the stick while
the wheel's rolling (changing the angle of it's axle, like when you're
steering it), you'd feel a force that fights your inputs and tries to
keep the wheel in it's previous position.  The "rotational inertia" is
what causes the wheel to be more difficult to turn.

Now I don't exactly know how much RPMs the wheel do on those cars, but
since the inertial forces increase with RPM I guess this would have
some kind of influence.  So then you have to work harder in order to
make the wheels turn.  And since some pieces used in the steering
mechanism are somewhat flexible and the inertial forces fight against
their movement, you end up having less movement from the wheels for
the same input on your steering wheel.

I think that's what he means.

A. Renault

If you're going to attempt to slag me, at least have the fortitude to do
so using your real name, rather than posting anonymous potshots from the
protection of DejaNews. Another example of the phenomenon of a big mouth
getting way ahead of an underdeveloped brain.

I've been on the net a long time. I've posted in many groups, because I
have many interests. I frequent Microsoft groups because I'm a Mac
computer consultant, and unfortunately often have to deal with Macs
networked with PCs and NT servers. It's my job.

I do indeed have -- and wear, on occasion -- a kilt. I'm Clan Wallace,
my grandmother was born Margaret Wallace in the Bridge of Weir Orphanage
in Glasgow. My daughter was recently married in a full Scots ceremony,
and as father of the bride and groomsman to my son-in-law, I wore the
complete dress kilt -- sporran, skian dubh, and all. After inquiring in
the Scots newsgroups, I bought my kilt from the American importer for
Hugh McPherson.

While I have posted to many of these groups over the years, in none of
them have I presented myself as an infallible expert on anything, unlike
this "Charles Mak" (I think you know quite well who he is), who presents
himself as an incontrovertible expert on everything. You and he were
made for each other -- perhaps made FROM each other.

BTW, the old joke about the kilt, the zipper, and the sheep has been
around about 100 years longer than you have, if I've correctly guessed
your age at 14.

Bart Brown

In previous sims Papy have included specific programming to help joystick
and even keyboard drivers. 'Reduce with speed' is simply another aspect
of this and I really don't see any strong argument for not having it
without campaining against all the others.

Even though I like very linear steering I do feel that reduce with speed
is a good idea. I don't need it at the Glen but it would certainly make
for better racing at somewhere like Monza. And until we get the sort of
force feedback that can accurately represent the forces involved with
turning a wheel at speed it seems a sensible compromise - indeed rather
more sensible than allowing non-linear steering IMHO.

Just because something has been picked up on by a troll doesn't
automatically mean it's a bad idea ;-)

And whilst on the subject I would like to see sensitivity settings for
throttle and brake. I could achieve the same effect by physically messing
about with my pedals (just as the RL drivers would) but it would be a
heck of a lot simpler if implemented in the software <g>

Cheers,
Richard

Haven't you seen any of the races this year?

BTW, they've got grooves too.  <g>

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:09:54 -0400, "Charles Mak"

Most people know whereof they speak, but lack of a "reduce with speed"
is a somewhat valid point. It's more so in modern day since the
downforce will tend to make the steering heavier as speed increases,
but castor steer and toe-in will have some kind of similar effect in
60's F1 - although not so related to speed.

If it makes it easier it might be a worthwhile option.

Cheers!
John

You really have got to read Dale Carnegie's book, "How to win friends and
influence people."

I hear what you are saying, but I don't agree 100%.  I can see how speed
would make a steering wheel harder to turn, but I don't see how this effects
steering input, especially from a sim point of view.  The steering
components are flexible to a point, yes, but come on!  These parts might
flex very small fractions of an inch at best, and would hardly make a
significant difference in turning ratios.  Did anyone watch the Argentine
Grand Prix this weekend?  I noticed many of the cars including Schumacher
and Villeneuve looking awful twitchy at the end of the straights.  It didn't
look to me like they were having to fight to get the car to turn.