rec.autos.simulators

I have never used non linear except for experimenting which I
immediately switched :)!

Trev

<snip>
% What I'm trying to get at is that compromises have to be made in order to
% transfer the mechanical motion of wheel / pedals / joystick into digital
% inputs to the game engine. None of the currently available control
% combinations are exactly like that used in any race car, let alone a
% Lotus 49 ;-) None of them offer the correct feedback that *does* vary
% with speed - and FF will not be capable of doing so for some time.

% So if one particular compromise is deemed acceptable then why not others?
% Where should the line be sensibly drawn? If an, admittedly unrealistic,
% 'reduce with speed' option allows the *simulation* of the different
% torque required to turn the front wheels at different speeds then is this
% necessarily so evil?

% Just my 2 pence worth.

I too am a little confused about how the car handles at speed on a
straight with full linear settings.  It seems way too sensitive.
However, if Papy is modeling everything they claim to be, this is either
"accurate" or they need some more fine tuning.  I would rather they make
it accurate than plug in a "shim" like "reduce with speed".  Now having
said this, I still think there may be a need for a "reduce with speed"
control setting.  This is due to the quality (or lack thereof) of game
port controllers and controlling devices.  

I am beginning to wonder if the experiences everyone is having is
different based on the speed of their graphics, the precision of their
game port, and the precision of their wheel.  The readings from a
non-calibrating game port vs. a speed adjustable game port can vary
in scale greatly.  Does Papy's optimized controller driver compensate
for the wide scale of readings from different game cards?  Does the
steering react the same with a cheap game port vs. a Thrustmaster ACM?

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Corrections noted!

When this subject has been discussed over on the Sports Sims forum on
Compuserve, it seems to be about a 50/50 split amongst the better
drivers. Some like non-linear settings with quite large steering locks
whilst others prefer linear with low lock. A very odd few like linear
settings with *huge* wheel lock - but they're *very* odd <vbg>

Well that's why I suggested a 'reduce with speed' option ;-) Although
actually I do find it easy enough atm. Don't know what it will be like
when running in traffic but the fully linear setting means that it is
very esy to correct slight deviations. With non-linear settings it is all
too easy to end up see-sawing the wheel from left to right and back again
trying to avoid amplifying the original mistake - at least that's what I
find.

And feelings differ <g> For me, I can't get any real feel with the
non-linear setting. I like crisp, responsive controls.

Cheers,
Richard

On Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:19:01 GMT, "Michael E. Carver"

I'm using a PII 300 with 3dfx and it's very smooth at 600*400 with all
details on (not smooth enough for me at 800*600 though). I've got an ACM
card and a GP500 wheel that isn't to everyone's liking but I find very
accurate around the centre zone (much better than the TSWs I've tried,
although I think I may be in the minority on that one <g>).

Although I think there probably should be a 'reduce with speed' shim
(nice word, btw <g>) I don't have any trouble controlling the car on the
straights with the full linear setting. I *may* risk experimenting and
disable the ACM / try running at 800*600 or even use the software
rendering and see what differences it makes - but no promises ;-)

Cheers,
richard

Usually, if you are driving a full circle, the inner and outer front
wheels of a car describe concentric circles with different diameters.
You can influence this behavior (during the designing process) by
changing the angle between the steering knuckle arms.
If one defines the inner wheel to describe the "correct" circle, the
outer wheel could describe a circle that is too big or too small.
If the outer wheel makes a smaller circle, this reduces understeer.

Approximately correct, or like me quite often in GPL, i.e. completely
off-track? :)

--
Wolfgang Preiss       \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

Uni des Saarlands       \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

Mike I dont know what the game port has to do with it because I've never
had to use anything but the SB port since I started racing years ago. I
would guess the controller would have a greater effect, I know there was
a world of diff when I switched from my long dead T1 to my TSW.

Trev

% > I am beginning to wonder if the experiences everyone is having is
% > different based on the speed of their graphics, the precision of their
% > game port, and the precision of their wheel.  The readings from a
% > non-calibrating game port vs. a speed adjustable game port can vary
% > in scale greatly.  Does Papy's optimized controller driver compensate
% > for the wide scale of readings from different game cards?  Does the
% > steering react the same with a cheap game port vs. a Thrustmaster ACM?
% >

% Mike I dont know what the game port has to do with it because I've never
% had to use anything but the SB port since I started racing years ago. I
% would guess the controller would have a greater effect, I know there was
% a world of diff when I switched from my long dead T1 to my TSW.

Well, then you should give a quality game port a try.  As there was a
work of difference when I scrapped my SB port for a Thrustmaster ACM
game card. ;-)  To be honest the world may have been smaller than your's,
but there is an improvement in the control with a game port that can be
calibrated to the speed of one's computer.  The sampling rate of the
port during calibration can be as much as 400%.  This can and will make
a difference in how a controlling device is read by a program and
therefore can and will make a difference in how the program reacts to
input from the controlling device.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I'm finding the game a real pleasure to drive, the feel i get from
the car is awesome, and the more i drive the GPL demo the more i
am able to read from teh car. I've got a P233mmx and run at 800x600
and probably get around 15-20fps which isn't really very much but
it's still pretty good. perhaps i should try 640x480 and see if my
laptimes improve from the 1:08.0's i can do.

And regarding the steering input... i think a gamecard would probably
be a good decision for everyone:) At the moment i have a ***
oscilation in all my joystick axiis that varies from less than 1%
oscillation at 2Hz or so, when the combined total resistance of all
the pots in my wheel are at minimum values, up to about a 4-5%
oscillation at 10-15hz when the total resistances are at maximum.
The oscillations are very visible in any calibration screen, and are
all synchronised over the 4 axis on my T2, so I would say it's my
Soundblaster gameport being rather crap. Has anyone else out there
had this sort of experience before?
I'd love to chuck in a gamecard just to see if this all goes away and
finally gives me smooth control inputs. but in the meantime i can use
it as an excuse for my bad driving :)

Grant.

More definitions!!!

1.  Steering with 2 kingpins (instead of a single pivot in the middle of an
axle like a farm wagon).

2.  Arranging the individual wheel steer angles so that both front wheels
track a "perfect" geometric turn.  Because the outer wheel is on a bigger
diameter circle, the steer angle required is less.  The result is "toe out"
as the wheels are steered away from center.  Legend has it that this
practice was started to keep from plowing ruts in the gravel of rich
owner's driveways.  

Race cars often vary from this, as they corner with tire slip angles.  Car
designers have their own ideas about the correct amount of Ackermann
correction.

3.  The average steer angle (measured either at the front wheels or
at the steering wheel -- the measurement should specify) required
to negotiate a turn at very low speed, where the tire slip angles are
essentially zero.  The Ackermann steer angle is the reference angle
for a number of handling tests -- the change in steer angle from
the Ackermann angle (as a car corners harder) is the formal definition
of understeer and oversteer.

-- Doug

Of course, the game could be the culprit, but the games you have
problems
with, work like a charm on anybody elses system...

l8er
ronny

--
Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure,
kiddo?"

          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

Matt
--
Matthew Knutsen

Cheek Racing Cars
http://home.sol.no/~kareknut/

   Hi Trevor. My email isn't working so I'm using this! Per your post

Do other sims such as N2, ICR2 and so on work OK when run in DOS mode?
Can you calibrate the TSW normally in the W95 setup and cal applet?

If you can run OK when in DOS then the prob could be in W95 itself.
Which version do you you have? Which version of Direct X?
Have you tried using the Pro Panel applet from TMs website?

What hardware are you running? Speed etc? I would guess that you may be
running a gamecard?

Give me as many details as you can and maybe I can come up with
something, OK?

Trev