rec.autos.simulators

Hello,
After reading about the debate over GPL being a sim or arcade type
program, and after trying out the program myself, here's my thoughts.

Why can't a simulation be considered a simulation, despite it's tendency
to produce arcade like results?  Why does it have to model operator
behaviour, as well as car and track physics?

First, a simulation is just that, a simulation.  After playing GPL, what
struck me is the car apparently handles like a race car...  if you drove
it by remote control!  Unless you got many $$$ to blow on a real
simulator, there's no physical cues from the G's you'll feel going around
a curve.  No feeling of danger from killing yourself by wrapping your car
around a tree of fate or some other car.  No vibration.  No feeling of
"being there".

Second, so what's stopping you from driving in "twitch" mode, and
practicing that turn over and over and over again, until you get that lap
time down to optimum?  Actually, if the simulation is accurate in both
modeling and visual cues, you're real driving skill would actually be
enhanced.  At least this works for airplane simulators in heavy use
today.  As for GPL?  It's just a game, a very good game.  I wouldn't use
it as training for real driving.  Not because it doesn't model the car
and track accurately, but because you would need mucho bucks to
accurately give you the visual (BIG screen) and physical cues to make you
feel like your there.

Therefore, I just don't see the "simulation vs arcade" debate.  I feel
you can have both!  What should be debated is if the modeling is accurate
enough, and the graphics have enough accurate eye candy (ooops!  I mean
visual cues), and then get back to playing GPL and F1rs!

Thanks for listening,
John

John,

You make some good points, and I think you underestimate the human brain's
ability to imagine, and suspend disbelief.

Except for the perspective (i.e., from inside the***pit).

Absolutly true.

As far as killing yourself you're absolutely right, and I think unless you
narrowly define danger as only applying to physical harm it (danger) can
apply to other things.  Like blowing a string of consistent laps by clipping
that hay bale at the exit of turn 2 if you get a little wide.  Not to
mention doing something stupid when you have the leaders in site on lap 12
at the 'ring... in an on-line race.

 >No vibration.  No feeling of

Some of that vibration can be taken care of with a good sub-woofer, and more
of it can be taken care of with a Thunderseat.

As far as "being there" is concerned, if my expierence with ICR, NASCAR,
GP2, and to a lesser extent F1RS because I haven't spent that much time with
it, are any indication, when the full version comes out and we can compete
against a presumably very good AI (I hope papyrus doesn't do an obviousely
brilliant driving/handling model and then blow the AI), and each other, I'm
quite sure I, personally, won't have any problems feeling like I'm "there".
When I've got the lights down real low, and the volume turned up real high,
and I'm sitting with my face 3 feet from a 17" monitor with my sweaty hands
wrapped around a leather bound wheel, and I'm fender to fender in the pack
going into T1 at Bristol,  or I'm trying to make the pass on and "Anderetti"
or "Unser" while closing on the corkscrew at Laguna, I AM there.  And I
don't know how much "danger" I'm feeling but my pucker string is usually
pulled pretty tight in those situations, particularily if I'm on-line or
it's some kind of league race.

I think I missed your point here.  The general consensus, with notable
exceptions, is that GPL "is accurate in both modeling and visual cues",
isn't it?  And I believe many of the "simulators" used for flight training
are, in fact, static simulators.

Well, when the full version come out I think the "object of the game" will
be to succeed a well as you can while competing against other (simulated,
and real on-line) drivers, after many hours of testing and fiddling with
various setups on tracks that appear very much like real world tracks, after
qualifying in real time, and running real time races.  That to me sounds
just like a "simulation" of real racing.  They will probably leave out the
politics, but I think most of the other important stuff will be in it.
GPL2 may even have weather effects.

Agreed!!!

I concur with the pucker-factor factor!
;)
R. Faust
aka Xducer

A Bill Gates Lackey wrote

Hmm, in what do you think it produce arcade results ? Fact and proof please.
(probably under I will check....

After playing the Alpha version, please.

Unless you got many $$$ to blow on a real

Hmmm LOL. It's an opinion, but I don't agree with you.  Since it's a
simulator, it's normal you don't fear crashing (well, there is no
DirectPain ). No vibration ??? Take the GP car (I hope you found it) and
tell me you don't feel the car at the end of the backstrech <g>.  Hmm what
do you want more to simulate the <g> ? Build a FF chair if you really want
this.  Head-panning ? It's a beauty in GPL.   Remember than a racing
simulator is all within your hands, ear, feets and EYES !  It's kinda normal
that there is no feel of actual G's.

Hmmm, it does. I don't think that after 100laps you are a better driver. But
after 100000laps of Nascar 2 I did, yes It makes you a better driver <g>.  I
don't agree about not enhancing your driving skills.

Oh please. Even air simulators aren't good for training.  CAE, one of the
biggest Military and Airline Air simulator company in the world is about
5mins from my house, so I can tell you that PC-based Air Sims are "arcade"
compared to this.  Even FS98 can't be given FAA approval for logging
simulation time.

You Don't understand the whole point here ! You are even trying to compare
AirSims to SimRacing titles (kinda stupid IMHO).

The point is that Papyrus DOESN'T want to create any type of arcade feeling
to GPL. David Kaemmer doesn't want it, and it's not in his philosophy
!!!!!!!!!! GPL is for serious racing people only, so if arcade people are
angry well SORRY, the title isn't aimed for you.

Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)

Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club
Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking)

--"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--