rec.autos.simulators

Unless you're actually driving on ice, you mean? Over the limit is simply
that: over the limit, regardless of the surface. The difference between
30% -- still firmly in the tires' linear traction range -- and 95% is so
large as to not be worth discussing. The RL "feel" of a road car pushed
beyond its linear traction range feels precisely like a car on ice.

Anyway, that's all kinda moot. I liked GP2, but haven't had a chance to
re-explore its physics after having had my eyes opened by GPL. I'm looking
forward to comparing the two. In the best of worlds, my hope is that we
conclude that it's GPL with grip, and WX effects.

Now there's an idea. How much cash are we talking? And is it really
meaningful in this discussion without other open-wheel racing experience?

Michael.

Cheers,
Simon Goodwin

regards,
Andrew

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Jan.
=---

I heartily agree. I know from real world experiences, that there is far more
progressivity and "feel" as your tires lose grip than I have felt in GPL. Viper
racing , despite some minor oddities in its physics, has a far better feel to
it, perhaps in part because it is mimicing a modern car. The car feels
ponderous and as if you have to fight all of that mass. GPL cars often come
around at low speeds with virtually no warning. I hope for far better from GP3,
than just GPL with a bit of downforce thrown in, those big tires with modern
compouds should yield less of a feeling of driving on ice.

That, I believe, is more a matter of car setup than truly a fault with GPL.
Unless you're referring to the lack of G's acting on your butt, that is. I'm
still going on the presumption that most think that reality is defined by
what they see and feel in a street driven sedan, where I daily feel the
night and day difference between my wife's Lexus and my auto-x prepared
Cobra daily driver. Even there, the wheel spring rate is still a soft 50
lb/in. Extrapolating, I would guess that a 1500 lb chassis and 400 lb/in
wheel rates would feel pretty close to what we see now in GPL. Like the rest
of you, I'm guessing, since I don't have any experience in any type of open
wheel racer.

Michael.

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL hcp. +69.01

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Anyway, the original point was the behavior of GPL cars seems very far
removed from Real-Life (TM) feel and expectations. I found the opposite to
be true. Even so, I'm hesitant to test some of the more extreme stuff we've
all learned from racing GPL. For example, do you recall that discussion
about steering into the turn to salvage an overcooked corner? I do it
routinely in the sim, but don't recall a single instance in 20+ years of
street thrashing where I came close to needing that much correction. A
judicious press on the gas was all that was ever necessary to settle a light
rear.

You didn't say if you thought the physics and car behavior matched your
expectations after driving a Skip Barber Dodge. And having pushed a car
beyond its linearity range, what do you think of how street driving compares
to racing?

Michael.

I went to the Laguna Seca school in June.  Comparing GPL to a real race car,
GPL does exactly what I'd expect based on the control inputs.  The steering on
the Dodges is very stiff, compared to your normal car.  After the first
session, I'd worked up a sweat, and my arms were sore... :)  It's a lot easier
to get wheelspin exiting the corners, but the Barber Dodge cars don't have 400
HP, either.  The major problem with GPL is the lack of feel, which we can't do
anything about.  

Street driving doesn't compare to racing.  The average person will NEVER go
past the limits of their car.  The speed limits are too low, and most people
are law-abiding.  The exception is in rain or snow, when road conditions are
poor.
Did I answer your questions ok?

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL hcp. +61.25

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Sure did; wasn't trying to force words into your mouth. :-) I do two auto-x
events a month during the summer. I know I'm scared chitlin's to bring the
car to its edge, and disagree totally with the guy who said a RL car, unlike
a GPL or GP3 car, doesn't feel like it's on ice when it's gone over the
edge. I've been backwards at 70 mph just once, and never had the guts to put
it there again. It doesn't matter a whole lot whether it's ice or dry
parking lot asphalt; it's not a warm-fuzzy when the controls no longer have
any effect.

Saw that your GPL handicap came down a ton. Where'd you do that at?

Michael.

Nurburgring - I dropped almost 8 seconds...  Finally got under 9 minutes.
Turned an 8:52, then 8:57, then 8:55 in successive laps!  I'm beginning to
think that my goal of 8:30 may have been a tad optimistic.  I don't see myself
being able to find 20+ seconds.  When I tried to go faster, I kept
crashing(about 5 laps worth). :(

Eldred

--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL hcp. +59.33

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Work on the medium speed corners. (As though that were meaningful. :-) The
fast, front third or so is important, but there's not much to do except exit
the slow corners cleanly. The middle third with the medium speed corners is
where I found tons of time. And a forgiving setup, rather than Huttu's , et
al's aggressive ones, did wonders while I learned where things were. The
most costly corners are the blind ones lurking behind the road dips. You can
carry a bit more speed when you learn how and where to commit to those. Best
of luck to you. I should be able to get under 8:20 (down from 8:37 or so
now), but can't seem to follow my own advice well enough.

Did you get GP3 yet? I'm holding out until after I close on my new house and
move, and then maybe see what further wisdom gets posted here.

Michael.

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL hcp. +59.33

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.