rec.autos.simulators

Guys -- I have a theory (who hasn't had one!).  Hear me out, then let me know
what you think.

GPL is a test bed for N3's physics model.  Think about it -- Papy decided after
N2 to do something radical about the model -- model in 3 dimensions with
essetially a "virtual" car that moved on its own suspension (squat during
acceleration and the like).  They tested it, and found it to be a very
different driving experience from N2.

So, I'm sure they were worried. N1/N2 is the franchise at Papy.  An untested
physics model could bomb.  Hence, GPL.  A perfect analog -- lightweight cars
with 400 hp, skinny tires and no wings.  Not much of a leap to 680 hp tankers
with skinny tires and no aero.

Thus, while I'm sure GPL is as legitimate a product as can be, and I state
unequivocally that I enjoy it immensely, I don't think that the sim was
designed from the ground up to accurately depict the 1967 Formula One cars (I
now stand ready to get flamed and proven wrong).  I think its a test bed for
N3's physics model.  They want to see what the reaction is to their model
before the implant it in their franchise product.

And I'm drooling over both GPL and N3 with the new physics.  Any of you guys
been to Martinsville or Wilkesboro?  You should see them stockers twitch and
dive under braking, squat under acceleration and kick the tail out coming of
the corners.  EXACTLY like the GPL demo.  GPL will be great, but the new
physics model will find its true home in N3, and will be incredible.  My
opinion only, flame away.  

Let me know what you think.  Just a theory, and I might be wrong.

% Guys -- I have a theory (who hasn't had one!).  Hear me out, then let me know
% what you think.

% GPL is a test bed for N3's physics model.  Think about it -- Papy decided after
% N2 to do something radical about the model -- model in 3 dimensions with
% essetially a "virtual" car that moved on its own suspension (squat during
% acceleration and the like).  They tested it, and found it to be a very
% different driving experience from N2.

I think there is some "truth" to your theory.  However, Papyrus cut
their teeth on open-wheel simulations and I know that there is still a
core left that still lust after the perfect CART simulation.  

With the success of NASCAR, many of the CART developers left (after
ICR2) for other ventures.  The core left were more NASCAR fans
than open-wheel fans.  Thus the concentration on NASCAR2 and the TEN
project.  Also the CART license somehow slipped by Papy.  I think there
were other reasons for GPL than just a testbed for NASCAR3.  

1)  The couldn't (or wouldn't deal with Bernie) over a current F1
license and wanted to try their hand at wooing the F1 fans.

2)  An excellent open-wheel sim with all of the physics of their new
engine could woo the CART bean-counters back to Papy's camp.

3)  The e***ment for the employees of the reception of a killer
open-wheel sim could woo them back to wanting to do a CART sim.

4)  The workings of the 1967 era cars were less complicated than current
Winston Cup and CART cars -- so what better to iron out the kinks of
their new sim, before adding all of the complexities of sheet metal,
wings, aerodynamics, etc....

<snip>

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

interesting:) but i suspect you are putting too much into the idea
that Nascar3 is papyrus's Great Goal and that all else is just
a "test". David Kaemmer's goal has always been to simulate motor-
racing as perfectly as possible, and each game that Papyrus produces
reflects their improving physics modelling. GPL is simply the next
step up for them. I expect that by the time Nascar3 is complete
the physics model they bring over from GPL will have been improved
in many subtle ways again. And then by the time ICR3/Cart2 arrives
(just exactly when is difficult to tell as yet, my crystal ball
is all cloudy) the physics model will probably be improved some more
still. and they'll keep improving it after that.
As to why they chose to make a sim based on the '67 F1 season, well,
i figure they wanted to do something different than the same old
Nascar and Cart that they've done for the last 4-5 games. And you
have to admit these '67 cars are awesomely fun to drive:)
At least they didn't go too far back in time. a fully simulated
Chariot racing game would be a bit too weird.

now of course i may be completely wrong myself! i try not to imagine
too elaborate reasoning behind actual real life things, as opposed
to TV programs where all motivation behind anything is as complicated
and as twisted as possible. Maybe i'm just being an idiot, to dare
think that the world is sensible:)

cheerio,
Grant.

interesting:) but i suspect you are putting too much into the idea
that Nascar3 is papyrus's Great Goal and that all else is just
a "test". David Kaemmer's goal has always been to simulate motor-
racing as perfectly as possible, and each game that Papyrus produces
reflects their improving physics modelling. GPL is simply the next
step up for them. I expect that by the time Nascar3 is complete
the physics model they bring over from GPL will have been improved
in many subtle ways again. And then by the time ICR3/Cart2 arrives
(just exactly when is difficult to tell as yet, my crystal ball
is all cloudy) the physics model will probably be improved some more
still. and they'll keep improving it after that.
As to why they chose to make a sim based on the '67 F1 season, well,
i figure they wanted to do something different than the same old
Nascar and Cart that they've done for the last 4-5 games. And you
have to admit these '67 cars are awesomely fun to drive:)
At least they didn't go too far back in time. a fully simulated
Chariot racing game would be a bit too weird.

now of course i may be completely wrong myself! i try not to imagine
too elaborate reasoning behind actual real life things, as opposed
to TV programs where all motivation behind anything is as complicated
and as twisted as possible. Maybe i'm just being an idiot, to dare
think that the world is sensible:)

cheerio,
Grant.

    This I imagine was part of the reason for Marc's faith in the "No
CART 2" rumour. Interesting. Surely Papy/Sierra made a killing on ICR1
and 2. I cannot remember ever walking into a games shop and not seeing
plenty of copies of them since their release. And surely in the U.S.
even more so. I would imagine that CART has an equivalent following in
the U.S. as Nascar and most definantly a greater appeal on an
international stage. I just can't understand why Papy/Sierra let the
CART side of things go for so long. I would have thought it a no brainer
to re establish the CART team ASAP (part or wholey independant of the
NAS team). Maybe so many people are still buying CART 2 they don't see a
need. Ok fellas, lets stop praising ICR2 :) Let's start telling the
world CPR is the best CART sim on the planet. LOL. Maybe some of these
game reviewers are smarter than we give them credit for :) 3 cheers for
CGW!

(Lots of interesting theory-stuff snipped)
Hmmmm.  There is always the possibility that you are correct.  There is
also the possibility that Papyrus is, in truth, the espionage arm of the
Egyptian Secret Service (papyrus...Egypt.  Get the connection there?)and
that 'GPL' is really a method of encrypting a doomsday device that Dr.
Evil, aka Mike Lescault, will place in orbit around the Earth, the intent
being that, as soon as its detection system senses that Geoff Crammond
has completed GP3, a powerful death ray will zap down from 22,000 miles
above Geoffs' house and will, quite literally, fry his brains.

Of course, this is just my theory.

Regards,
---
Bruce.

The Grand Prix Legends Historic Motor Racing Club:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

   Good theory there 666 but it is not a very big leap in logic.  Almost from the
moment GPL was anounced, they confirmed the same engine would be used for N3.
  Look at it from another angle....There are half a dozen F1 sims recreating the
last few years.  Everybody is trying to outbid each other to garner the rights to
the most recent seasons so name recognition is high.  BUT....that gets expensive.
  How do you get your foot into a world wide sim audience(F1) and still keep costs
somewhat manageable?   Go back in time.   I think the track licensing probably cost
more than Papyrus originally thought but  I'm sure it is nothing to the blackmail
money the FIA demands for current products.
btw...does anybody know how Papy is gonna stick a 14 mile track in a 16 meg
system???
dave henrie

% btw...does anybody know how Papy is gonna stick a 14 mile track in a 16 meg
% system???

Yes!  By requiring all 16 meg systems to have an extra spare 16 meg
installed.  <G>

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

- Matt

Hi,

It probably has to do with the performance of today's computers.
Somewhere I read that GPL is updating its physics model at approximately
200Hz. This is probably not enough if you want to correctly simulate
modern race cars with high down force, stiffer suspension, stiffer
tires, much better brakes, lighter wheels and so on. The time constants
in a modern race car are much smaller compared to old race cars.

A simple analogy would be if you wanted to do a numerical simulation of
a mass suspended in a spring. You would have to update the simulation
faster than the frequency of the system to capture its correct motion.
If you now increase the stiffness of the spring (as have happened in
modern race cars) the frequency of the system will increase. Therefore,
you have to update the simulation more often to capture the correct
motion of the system.

Due to this you probably end up at updating the physics model at 500Hz
or more for a modern race car. This would require a faster computer and
that is probably why they will wait to use this physics model until the
average computer is fast enough for simulating a modern race car.

This could be one of the reasons for simulating older race cars.

This theory is based on my own (spare time) effort developing a race car
simulation game using multibody dynamics and fixed step ode-integrators.

Jesper Adolfsson
Department of Mechanics
Royal Institute of Technology
SWEDEN

That leads me to ask the following question:
If GPL requires a (more or less) top of the line system to run on, what will
the system requirements be for Nascar3 when it comes out in December?
Remember, N3 will have many more features that weren't implemented in GPL,
increasing the processor load.

It boggles the mind...

doktorB
---

doktorB wrote

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if the gap isn't that big.

First of all, it's the same game engine.  It's like Nascar1/Indycar2.  So
you can expect the same gap in details/graphics/etc..

IMHO, around the end of this year 3d card will hopefully chip standard on
most of the PC. In the eventuality that Voodoo-based card do some sort of
monopol like Creative (SB) some years ago, I may speculate that there isn't
going to be a non-accelerated version anymore. Many things can happend.
OpenGL, D3D, etc... can make some big steps, nobody knows.

32mb minimum (tracks more little than in GPL), but 64recommended.  P200mmx
minimum. That would be a good speculation.  But it's at least 8months away
(I don't expect it before X-mas).  It will all depend on how the ***
market goes.

Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-)

Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club
Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking)
Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking)

--"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

I'm not sure how much the comparision between '67 F1 cars and current WC
cars applies, but I agree with a lot of the above.

GPL is a relatively 'low risk' approach. If it should turn out that the
market simply can't bear this level of realism then it hasn't hurt Papy's
main franchise(s).

Another thought in this though - 'all' that GPL requires is the phyisics
engine and normal-racing circumstance AI. A lot of the problem areas with
previous Papy sims have been due to getting the yellow flag situations
right. This is clearly a very complex area since Papy haven't mastered it
yet and other companies seem to shy clear of even trying. GPL won't have
any full course yellows, allowing Papy to concentrate on the
fundamentals. Again, a relatively 'low risk' approach.

GPL was always supposed to be about the 'spirit' of F1 racing at the time
of the introduction of the 3 litre formula. I think a lot of the
hostorical accuracy bit is as much from pressure from the likes of us as
from within Papy.

Hey, GPL cars at Wilkes. Now there's a wonderful thought! <vbg>

I hope the track formats are sufficiently compatible for someone to
produce a N3 to/from GPL track converted. Running WC cars at the 'Ring
would also be fantastic <g.

Well I don't think it is the whole story <g>

Final thought - Papy's NASCAR and CART franchises appeal predominently to
the US market. F1 however has a truly worldwide customer base. People who
would shun N3 because 'oval racing is boring' may buy GPL, discover how
wonderful it is and be tempted to buy N3 on the back of it.

Cheers,
Richard

Francois,
    In my experience with the software industry, I have found that they
determine what the average system people have, and write the game to run
well on that system. They won't sell many copies if they are written for the
top of the line systems only. Right now, I think that a p133mmx is about the
baseline they are looking at. Very few PIIs out there yet. It will be
another year before even a low-end PII will be considered an "average"
system. Simmers seem to go to the high-end stuff quicker than most
IMHO......:-).......we demand a certain performance level, and pay to get
it. The majority of the people buying the software are not what I call
dedicated simmers, so the industry has to look at them and their systems. If
GPL will not run correctly on say, a 166mmx or there-abouts, I think it will
be a problem for Papy and Sierra to market to the people who have those or
lower systems. Ram is not looked at as closely as in the past, mainly
because the price of an extra 32megs is less than most good programs are
now. I expect most people have 32 or more on their systems now anyway.

--
Regards, Ed Medlin

www.edmedlin.netminds.com
Columnist, Software Critics Unlimited
www.softwarecritic.com

Ed, no doubt your experiences haven't included a Mr. Geoff Crammond and
a product known as "Grand prix 2".

Mr. Crammond, in his infinite wisdom, programmed this sim so that it
would run in optimum configuration on a Cray super-computer of the type
used by NORAD, who were delighted, of course: with the scaling down of
the Cold War it meant that the console operators who would normally
monitor their screens for Soviet missiles were now free to play Grand
Prix 2 on the system.