rec.autos.simulators

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

Zonk

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Zonk » Thu, 06 May 1999 04:00:00



>> I know there was discussion about this and there WAS a Swiss GP in 75 and one
>> in 82 but they were held in France at Dijon.  Perhaps this is the mysterious
>> Swiss GP where spectators were killed????

>I guess the mysterious crash someone talked about was in the mid 70s
>at the Spanish F1 GP in Barcelona. This was the old track within the
>Montjuich park, and the Olympic stadium of 1992 was used for the teams
>camp.

I recall a demo lap or two done by a modern F1 car (Williams/Coulthard?) in
the last few years- it was a park seemingly in the hills above Barcelona.
(piece was in Autosport (uk) on it.).

According to my GP Data book, this was indeed in 1975, and as a result of wing
failure. (the book explicity says the track saw some horrific accidents). Four
people were killed. (as it says on the cirucit profile.)

However, the race was stopped after 29 Laps, as recorded in the season
analysis- and half points were awarded for the race. (This accounts for
Lombardi's 0.5 points for the 1975 season!) However, In this section, it says
5 spectators were killed by Stommelen's Hill-cosworth on lap 25.

So i'm not sure which is correct, 4 or 5 dead.

So this race certainly did exist- and remains in the record books. Not the
quite the "phantom" covered-up race we are seeking.

Yup, and by all accounts, one of the best modern circuits for spectating at-
great vanatge points, even in GA.

Z.

Zonk

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Zonk » Thu, 06 May 1999 04:00:00


>However, the race was stopped after 29 Laps, as recorded in the season
>analysis- and half points were awarded for the race. (This accounts for
>Lombardi's 0.5 points for the 1975 season!) However, In this section, it says
>5 spectators were killed by Stommelen's Hill-cosworth on lap 25.

Incidentally, according to the lap charts, Stommelen lead for laps 17-21 and
23-25, so he was indeed leading when his rear wing failed.

Z.

hime

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by hime » Thu, 06 May 1999 04:00:00

For goodness sake, take a pill or something and chill out.  The last few days are the first
time I've ever seen you post to this group and all you've done so far is ***all over people
and be incredibly rude.  I've tried to ignore you but I'm weak.

A significant amount of the information exchanged in this group comes about as the result of
casual discussion.  Emphasis on "casual".  We don't all research a subject to death before we
post.  Consider that, as you surely will, another shortcoming of we North Americans which you
so despise and apparently consider as inferior.  All Tim said was he remembered a race from
years ago in a certain country where many people died.  So he didn't quote line, chapter and
verse, he didn't have the names of all the bereaved relatives.  What's the big deal?  This
group is as much about finding out about things as it is knowing about things.  If you have
all the facts, more power to you, I'm eager to listen and learn and "could" consider you a
valuable source of information.  However, if the only way you can impart your knowledge to
others is with derision and contempt, not to mention foul language, we're better off without
you.  I'd rather read it in a book.  You're obviously intelligent, well informed and an
enthusiast, but without a major attitude adjustment you're just more noise.  I think the last
line of your post pretty much spells it out.  What on earth can you believe you're
contributing to this group with a statement like that?  What would have been so difficult
about providing the information you have and correcting Tim and those of us who didn't know
all the details (myself included) without the abuse and the "pull facts out of your ass"
statement.  He didn't state any facts, he simply recalled something he had heard/read about a
long time ago.

Ok, ball's in your court, rip me apart.  I have no doubt you will.  I've got buttons sticking
out all over me, you just have to press them.  Given what I've seen so far, I have to assume
that's what gets you off, not racing sims or history.

            Zog


> Tim,

> let me assume this is directed at myself- perhaps you should learn how to
> quote and follow up posts.

> More importantly, i think you should learn that facts are quite important when
> making some kind of reasoned argument.

> All too often people sprout about something they might have read somewhere-
> once (upon a time) without actually talking about anything that really
> occured. Since for some reason the existance of this race being "covered" up
> (que X-files theme) then it was really, the whole point of your post.

> i think all of us here have a reasonable expectation that any such comment is
> made with the real knowledge that what you say has some basis in fact.
> The suggestion by another reader that it may have been one of the spanish
> races in past is interesting- i will check my flatmates book before.

> The acceptance of "popular myths or urban legends" as truths simply becase we
> read them somewhere and they remain unchallanged, is a dangerous form of
> changing history - witness the new Hollywood film project which will bring up
> a generation of people thinking that Americans cracked the Enigma code in the
> US (rather than the British in Buckinghamshire).

> I find the whole process of accepting heresy as fact rather disturbing- say it
> enough times and maybe it will "become" true.

> In anycase, i'll take your flippant replies as defensive against your own
> knowledge shortcomings.

> Perhaps it would be time to refresh your memory before postly rashly in future
> about things it is apparent you know nothing about.

> Oh, and btw- go *** yourself, idiot.

> Z.

> Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

--
Don't let the bastards grind you down.
Doug Schneider
Bedford, Nova Scotia
Canada
Tim Wheatle

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Tim Wheatle » Fri, 07 May 1999 04:00:00

Okay,

The point of my post was to answer a guys question on what would happen to
the 'race results.' I did NOT put across an argument, because there was no
contrary point to argue against, nor did I disagree with anything, I was
merely trying to answer someone's question, who was obviously wondering
whether his team would score any points for the race. I put accross the
point that the race could be "void" <...... direct quote, and I gave the
only example that I could think of, then, the person replied, thanked me,
and said "That is most likely" and indeed it is, and did there need to be
any more to it? OF COURSE! because you exist to try to make an argument out
of it.

Yes.... let me paint myself yellow and strip *** before the world and
shout "I WAS WRONG, I MADE A MISTAKE, I DIDN'T KNOW EXACTLY, 100%, NO
NONSENSE, SUPERBLY CORRECT WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT - ZONKIE IS A GOD."

Ok? Can we stop this shit now? Quite frankly I'm running out of tissue,
wiping your shit off the screen is tedious. I'm not reading this "What
Happened... " again, if you want to reply use my e-mail.
--
Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley
________________________________________________

                                  Tim Wheatley
                "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror"
                           http://www.racesimcentral.net/
     IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver
                      http://www.racesimcentral.net/

                  http://www.racesimcentral.net/~nascar
________________________________________________
.

Tim Wheatle

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Tim Wheatle » Fri, 07 May 1999 04:00:00

It was Jacques Villeneuve who did the demo.
(No reply needed)

--
Tim "Calm Down" Wheatley
________________________________________________

                                  Tim Wheatley
                "Yellow menacing helmet in the mirror"
                           http://start.at/igps_stats
     IGPS - Ferrari Challenge - UKGPL - Summer Cup Driver
                      http://drive.to/grandprixlegends

                  http://website.lineone.net/~nascar
________________________________________________

Zonk

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Zonk » Fri, 07 May 1999 04:00:00


>For goodness sake, take a pill or something and chill out.  The last few days
> are the first
>time I've ever seen you post to this group and all you've done so far is ***
> all over people
>and be incredibly rude.  I've tried to ignore you but I'm weak.

I've been here for a good 4-5ish? years or so.

Why? This is a global group. It's not North-american exclusive. And anyway,
take a look at headers, young Tim is from the UK.

Go re-read his intial post. I think you'll find he did try to pass off
something he knew nothing about as somethign that happened. I'm still not
inclinded to believe that a F1 GP resulting in spectator death could be
"wiped" from the books. Or indeed, that any F1 Gp could be.

Then why did he pursist in saying that 99 people were killed in Le Mans in
'55? This is what i am so amazed at. Probably the most well known and
documented spectator fatalities in all Motor Racing history, and he
continually insisted incorrect facts, which you could find in any historical
book, or even just by searching in Alta Vista for "Le Mans" +1955

Oh, i enjoy racing sims, and racing history, but aside from some possible
connections to GPL, history is not on-topic here. Therefore, i don't feel the
need to deliver my knowledge, but i will jump on what i see as blatant
mis-information, intended, or otherwise.

Z.

Please remove NOSPAM from my email address when replying.

R

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by R » Sun, 09 May 1999 04:00:00

I was watching the race on Speedvision and 10 mins before the Accident
I said what if two of those cars get together and launch the car up into
the stands, cause thats what happens when open-wheeled cars do when
they touch wheels.
Also, I wonder how Lowes feels now after Spending 10 million dollars for
the name rights to the C***te Motor Speedway and now this Tradegy
happens.

Lowes knows how to kill will be their new moto.

ddjhenri

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by ddjhenri » Sun, 09 May 1999 04:00:00

  Cool,  thanks for the info and correction.
            :>
  Thanks Jim
dave henrie


>Dave,

>No one was hurt in the Phoenix incident.  The wheel bounced harmlessly
into/near
>an empty banquet tent.

>Jim


>>   I can't remember if anyone died, but In a CART race at Phoenix several
>> years
>>  I
>> know some folks
>> were hurt but I can't remember if there were any deaths.  >

Eldre

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Eldre » Mon, 10 May 1999 04:00:00


The Nuerburgring crash was in '55, right?  So was the LeMans crash?  TWO major
crashes killing spectators in the same year?  It's a wonder motor racing wasn't
banned altogether...

__

Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea...
remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Eldre

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Eldre » Mon, 10 May 1999 04:00:00


Big freakin' deal, he got the number wrong...lighten up.  It's STILL 80 deaths
too many... :(

__

Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea...
remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Calvin9

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Calvin9 » Tue, 11 May 1999 04:00:00

Nope.  The Nurburgring incident was a guy's car getting on fire during a bad
crash, and F1 never raced there again (but a new track was built).  It was in
the 1970s.

Calvin
----
So, AOL has a service in Estonia?

Meij

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Meij » Tue, 11 May 1999 04:00:00


I assume you know what killfiles are for? I don't want to labour a point
here but if you don't like what someone has to say, either add them to your
killfile or don't read their posts. Simple.

Casual discussion is fine, the representation of an untruth as a fact is
something we don't want. Say 1000 people read the post and 100 people
believe it as the truth then that isn't good. As far as Zonkie thinking
North Americans are inferior, that depends on the North American in
question more than the race in general as far as I know.

We don't expect a fully researched post but perhaps a brief glance at a
book or the web might be in order before making a post like the one that
sparked this.

For a long time people have covered up mistakes by saying "I was told" or
"I read" or similar phrases and Tim did this when he spoke about the crash.
If, as he said, he learns his history from books then perhaps he would have
been advised to check it before he posted. I am 24 and obviously most of my
historical racing knowledge is gleaned from books, magazines, film and
talking to people I know.

The problem here is that Zonkie expects people to try to verify they don't
remember well before they post as he would do. Perhaps his style of
response could be a little less harsh but to be honest I don't see how, in
this case, it wasn't justified considering the long thread I just read. If
Tim had said "oh... sorry... I made a mistake" at the start and not forced
a long argument I suspect everything would be good.

Personally I don't want to know what gets Zonk off... :P

M

Matthias Fla

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Matthias Fla » Tue, 11 May 1999 04:00:00


The big Le Mans crash was in 1955, and (amongst others) the German GP
of that year got cancelled.

I was talking about Niki Lauda's fire crash before the Nuerburgring's
Bergwerk curve in the German GP of 1976. No spectators involved or
harmed. (BTW: the accident was filmed by a spectator, not by TV)
According to a book, no spectator got harmed on the Ring after WW2
(the only exception was someone crossing the track).

It was already decided that this would be the last F1 race on the
Nordschleife, and Hockenheim would host future German GPs.
The nearly fatal crash of the defending world champion and lap record
holder on the Nordschleife just was the "icing on the cake".
It served as a symbol of the potential danger of the Nordschleife and
was the confirmation of the much critized move to Hockenheim.

But the Lauda crash was not the initial reason to leave the Ring.
Some of the problems mentioned years before were eg. that the many
hard jumps and bumps on the Ring could and would cause mechanical
failures (maybe a broken suspension caused the Lauda crash) especially
with the winged cars being faster than ever before.
Also, the marshalls and ambulances had long distances to guard and
travel (Lauda was lucky that fellow drivers pulled him out).

With modern safety precautions, the Lauda would probably been
harmless: modern helmets don't come off during crashs as Laudas did.
And fire is no more a problem with the smaller (at least one pit stop
per race) and foam-filled tanks of today, mounted in the center of the
cars. In a interview Lauda described his 1977 Ferrari and said the
fuels tanks on the sides had a total capacity of 210 liters!

No. You got several crashes and years (Le Mans 1955, Barcelona 1975?,
Nuerburgring 1976) mixed up. The spectators killings were two decades
apart.

It was (and is more or less) in Switzerland.
It nearly got banned in Germany.

In Italy, the Mille Miglia race on public roads got banned in 1957
after a crash killed several spectators.

--
Matthias Flatt


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