rec.autos.simulators

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

Anssi Lehtin

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Anssi Lehtin » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00



> Could that be THE race i am talking about???***

Err.. Le Mans is in France.

--
Anssi Lehtinen

Matthias Fla

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Matthias Fla » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00


That's an issue that affects all open-wheel race cars.

First of all, the suspension arms should be made of metal rather than
carbon fibre - carbon is light and hard, but brittle. Metal can bend
and can adsorb some impact energy.
And second, they should connect the wheels with a wire to the chassis
(like in F1 now).
Plus, in case of a crash with broken suspension, there should be a
mechanism to pull the wheel quickly closer to the chassis, to prevent
bouncing. The wheel even can act as an extra deformation area
("Knautschzone" in German) when it's close to the chassis rather than
flying around somewhere in the air.
Similar mechanisms are already used in road cars, eg. to tighten the
seat belts.

--
Matthias Flatt

John Bod

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by John Bod » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00



>>  Attaching the wheels to the vehicle dramtically increases risk to the
>>driver.  It gives them a pivot about which to swing back at the driver's
>>head.  IMO, the attached wheel idea increases the risk to the driver much
>>more than it decreases any likelyhood of fan injury.  Spectators should
>>absolutely be at the top of the priority list where safety is concerned,
>>but the attached wheel idea is sort of pushing the drivers into the
>>"sacrificial lamb" area.  They're people too.

>Not true. The connection is short enough to not let the wheel bounce
>back anywhere close to the driver.
>The problem is that it takes of course a bit of technological
>development and the will to change something - both things which are
>certainly not in the 'spirit' of the IRL...

Sorry in advance for blowing my "high-tech" popoff valve on this one,
but you're WAY off base about technological development and the will
to change not being in the 'spirit' of the IRL.  I take GREAT offense
at this, in fact -- safety has been one of the Indy Racing League's
top priorities since their inception, and they have made CONTINUAL
improvements in the area of driver safety since the new chassis and
normally-aspirated engine formula was established in '97.  Many of the
***pit safety improvements and impact attenuation materials and
techniques that have been developed in the IRL have application in
other series, as well.  The Indianapolis Motor Speedway is pioneering
the use of soft impact material to be used to line the hard,
unforgiving concrete walls to lessen the impact when a car hits.  

Technological development and change are integral parts of the Indy
Racing League and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway -- especially in the
area of safety.  The death of Scott Brayton led to many changes and
technological improvements, and Davy Jones' injuries led to further
technological advances, changes, and improvements.  Apparently these
don't count, though.  Define for me how other series are innovating in
the areas of technology and change, if you would?  Or are you just
spouting anti-IRL rhetoric?

BTW, thanks for reducing this whole thing to "look how inferior the
IRL is, blah, blah, blah" level -- and for dragging me in.  Thanks
also for reminding me why I've been avoiding this newsgroup like a
leper colony for the past year or so.

-- John Bodin

- Show quoted text -

Te

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Te » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00



>Technological development and change are integral parts of the Indy
>Racing League and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway -- especially in the
>area of safety.  The death of Scott Brayton led to many changes and
>technological improvements, and Davy Jones' injuries led to further
>technological advances, changes, and improvements.  Apparently these
>don't count, though.  Define for me how other series are innovating in
>the areas of technology and change, if you would?  Or are you just
>spouting anti-IRL rhetoric?

Well, IRL is certainly not something I care enough about to start an
argument - but what technological *improvements* or even
*advancements* have been introduced there lately? Anything that's
differing from what is being used in the established (i.e.
international) racing series? Just curious.

--Tel

Bill Met

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Bill Met » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00




>>>  Attaching the wheels to the vehicle dramtically increases risk to the
>>>driver.  It gives them a pivot about which to swing back at the driver's
>>>head.  IMO, the attached wheel idea increases the risk to the driver much
>>>more than it decreases any likelyhood of fan injury.

>>Not true. The connection is short enough to not let the wheel bounce
>>back anywhere close to the driver.
>>The problem is that it takes of course a bit of technological
>>development and the will to change something - both things which are
>>certainly not in the 'spirit' of the IRL...

>That's an issue that affects all open-wheel race cars.

>First of all, the suspension arms should be made of metal rather than
>carbon fibre - carbon is light and hard, but brittle. Metal can bend
>and can adsorb some impact energy.
>And second, they should connect the wheels with a wire to the chassis
>(like in F1 now).

  There's a very fine line to walk here.  You have to weigh the risk of
the metal suspension arms being thrust back through the monococque with
the potential energy absorbsion they might provide.  I have a hunch that
if tubular suspension arms were built for optimum "crushability" they
probably wouldn't be strong enough to bear the loads they need to.

--
                    | "Instead of letting the moon be the
Bill Mette          |  gateway to our future, we have let
Enteract, Chicago   |  it become a brief chapter in our

Bill Met

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Bill Met » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00





>> FWIW, Humpy Wheeler has gone on record indicating that he really likes
>> the IRL formula, but he feels they should feature enclosed bodywork,
>> to allow for more "rubbin' and bumpin" -- and now that he's
>> experienced the tragedy at C***te first-hand, you can bet he's
>> going to be even more of an advocate for enclosed bodywork.  

>Why not just use the wires or whatever that they now have in F1 to keep
>the wheels from separating from the chassis?

Is there a picture or diagram of this device somewhere?  I'm quite curious
about it.  I have yet to see it because I'm stuck with dumpy F1 coverage
we get here in the States.

--
                    | "Instead of letting the moon be the
Bill Mette          |  gateway to our future, we have let
Enteract, Chicago   |  it become a brief chapter in our

Matthew Birger Knutse

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Matthew Birger Knutse » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00




> > FWIW, Humpy Wheeler has gone on record indicating that he really likes
> > the IRL formula, but he feels they should feature enclosed bodywork,
> > to allow for more "rubbin' and bumpin" -- and now that he's
> > experienced the tragedy at C***te first-hand, you can bet he's
> > going to be even more of an advocate for enclosed bodywork.

> Why not just use the wires or whatever that they now have in F1 to keep
> the wheels from separating from the chassis?

> --
> Anssi Lehtinen

How about making the air exit the tires in case of an accident?
The bouncing is a main concern, hard to implement, yes.....

Matt

--

Matthew Knutsen

"The Art of Legends" - GPL add-ons
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Ian Parke

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Ian Parke » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00

Doesnt seem to be very effective in F1 at the moment, they're still losing
wheels :(

--
Ian Parker

ICQ   21772592


> Why not just use the wires or whatever that they now have in F1 to keep
> the wheels from separating from the chassis?

> --
> Anssi Lehtinen

Drake Christens

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Drake Christens » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00

Closed bodywork won't necesarily help.  If I remember rightly, some
people were killed at a NASCAR race last year.

Mighty



> For the full story, check out The IRL Insider site:

>    http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> After last year's CART incident at Michigan, this could spell the end
> of open-wheel racing on high-speed ovals as we know it; at the very
> least, it's going to cause a ton of debate and create some drastic
> changes at tracks that host open-wheel races.  

> FWIW, Humpy Wheeler has gone on record indicating that he really likes
> the IRL formula, but he feels they should feature enclosed bodywork,
> to allow for more "rubbin' and bumpin" -- and now that he's
> experienced the tragedy at C***te first-hand, you can bet he's
> going to be even more of an advocate for enclosed bodywork.  

> -- John Bodin
>    Publisher, The IRL Insider Magazine
>    http://www.racesimcentral.net/



> > I went to this race tonight. 3 spectators were killed and 12 were injured on
> >turn 4.
> >The race was red flagged and then canceled after 70 laps completed.

> >Sad ending to what was looking to be a good race.  Its really weird because
> >there were many precautions taken by the track officials, and less than half of
> >the seats were filled. They left the turn two bleachers empty and part of turn 3
> >and 4.

> >After Michigan, and then this,  there will probably be a real shake up.


> >> I noticed that Humpy Wheeler called the IRL Visioneer 500 after a crash in
> >> turns 3 and 4.  I was watching (Speedvision) and they red-flagged it to
> >> clean up debris.  Then I see Humpy saying this is a night that they
> >> "...won't soon forget..."

> >> I know spectators were involved but no word on what happened.  I sure hope
> >> nobody was hurt to badly.  The pace was set at 222 mph and, needless to say,
> >> that's cruisin'.

> >> They keep slowing down the Champ cars yet IRL is turning ungodly speeds at
> >> the ovals.  I love it just like the next guy but I think after Michigan and
> >> whatEVER happened tonight we might see some changes.

Zonk

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Zonk » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00


>Hi Zonkie!

>Ever consider that might be the race he was referring to?  "Years ago", you
> catch that part?
>Good thing you told him off though.

>            Zog

Buttmonkey-

Unless geography has changed somewhat, or god forbid they begin teaching it
to you know nothing North Americans, Le Mans is not in, nor is anywhere near
Switerland.

They might speak french in some parts of Switzerland, but it is not france.

Also. please note, that Le Mans full circuit has not held a GP. Yes- the
Bugatti circuit has, but who's mentioning that .

Z.

Zonk

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Zonk » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00






>>> FWIW, Humpy Wheeler has gone on record indicating that he really likes
>>> the IRL formula, but he feels they should feature enclosed bodywork,
>>> to allow for more "rubbin' and bumpin" -- and now that he's
>>> experienced the tragedy at C***te first-hand, you can bet he's
>>> going to be even more of an advocate for enclosed bodywork.  

>>Why not just use the wires or whatever that they now have in F1 to keep
>>the wheels from separating from the chassis?

And witness how effective that device was on Sunday! i think it was (wurz?)
who quite clearly lost his.... And that was a quite low speed impact...

Z.

Zonk

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Zonk » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00


>ONE more thing, 99 spectators were killed, i DO remember hearing of it, as I
>am 19 i rely heavily on history books.

Rely on learning to read, before looking at history books- you might be
correct, then.

80 spectators perished in that crash.

Z.

John Courtn

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by John Courtn » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00

I noticed that at least once on Sunday.  I think the chain connecting the
wheels should at least be done right.  A wheel would be more dangerious
if it had the chain connecting it still attached than a tire without one.  
At least we can give them some credit for trying something I guess.  I
remember watching Spa last year and hoping that no one was around the
circuit where the suspension/wheel parts flew off.

Something substantial has to be done about suspension/wheeel parts flying
off open wheel cars though with six fatalities at two events in less than
a year.  This idea may sould strange or you can just write me off as
crazy.  But how about totally enclosing the track, or why not the
grandstands???  It would defently be expensive though, a life is
priceless though.  The events at C***te ruined a great weekend of
racing, IMO.  I feel for everyone involved.  It is aweful how a sport I
enjoy so much can have such a bad side to it.  I hope something
substantial is done to reduce the chances of this sort of thing happening
again in the future.

Later,
John

Jerry Moreloc

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by Jerry Moreloc » Tue, 04 May 1999 04:00:00

Where?  The last time I remember any debris even going into the stands at a
NASCAR race was at the '97 Daytona 500 when Jarrett rolled Earnhardt over
the top of Irvan and took the hood off the 28, which flew into the stands,
injuring--but not killing--some spectators.  Fans were killed at Michigan
last year during the CART race--not a NASCAR event.

Jerry Morelock

John Bod

What happened at Charlotte tonight?

by John Bod » Wed, 05 May 1999 04:00:00




>>Technological development and change are integral parts of the Indy
>>Racing League and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway -- especially in the
>>area of safety.  The death of Scott Brayton led to many changes and
>>technological improvements, and Davy Jones' injuries led to further
>>technological advances, changes, and improvements.  Apparently these
>>don't count, though.  Define for me how other series are innovating in
>>the areas of technology and change, if you would?  Or are you just
>>spouting anti-IRL rhetoric?

>Well, IRL is certainly not something I care enough about to start an
>argument - but what technological *improvements* or even
>*advancements* have been introduced there lately? Anything that's
>differing from what is being used in the established (i.e.
>international) racing series? Just curious.

>--Tel

Safety improvements in the past year or so include:  Improved head
restraints and***pit padding around the driver's heads; increased
height and setback on the air intakes above the driver's heads to
reduce the possibility of impact; lightened gearboxes and collapsible
gear shafts to improve impact attenuation; advanced research in
aluminum honeycomb impact attenuators for the rear of the cars'
gearboxes, to also improve impact attenuation; relocated front
suspension componentry to reduce intrusion into the frontal***pit
area; increased tub thickness in the frontal area to further reduce
suspension intrusion on impact; double-bulkhead tubs and lengthened
frontal structures to provide greater foot protection in frontal
impacts; impact-absorbing padding for the retaining walls themselves
to lessen crash impact and prevent cars and debris from being
propelled back out into traffic (these were used at the Indy IROC race
near the pit entry point, and helped cushion Luyendyk's impact in that
same race).  These things may not be exclusive to the IRL, but this is
just a short list, and it should give you an idea of type of
improvements and advances that are a part of the IRL's ongoing effort
to improve safety.  

-- JB


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