rec.autos.simulators

Steve Eymann

/Christer
--
http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o))

/Christer
--
http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o))

/Christer

It is a very interesting proposal, but I think the first problem
arises in rule 2: Any AI cars driving faster than a human driver will
probably be considered "unrealistic" by the human. ;-)

I can hardly understand rule 12: if a human driver eg. goes into the
gravel at turn 1, then his AI car receives this message a "latency
ping" later (eg. 2 seconds), and is then supposed to run off the track
asap on a straight, or at least at the next turn? Sounds strange to
me.

Rule 8 is also weird, e.g. applied to the recent Coulthard-Schumacher
accident at Spa. Who bumped who, who was the villain, who the victim?

Well, all efforts to improve multiplayer *** are certainly welcome.

But here, we have the same problem as physics and Einstein's theory of
relativity: Latency is the barrier of light speed on the net, and no
information can travel faster.
No way.

The "ghost" concept without any collisions is certainly the most
"fair" one, as it permits racing against the clock with other cars
around and probably even taking advantage of their slipstreams, but it
takes the fun out of out-braking and the like, because you don't have
to back off and leave your line in order to avoid a crash as you can
drive right through the "ghost". Especially in Monaco, where
overtaking is nearly impossible, this would be very unrealistic and
boring.

Maybe allowing the "warp" makes more sense in terms of "action":
E.g., a human driver named A drives gently around a corner, followed
by the AI car of player B in safe distance.
Then, after the latency time the IP packet arrives from the real
driver B of the pursuing car with the information that he made a
braking mistake and crashed into the leading AI car of A. So, instead
of accelerating on the straight, player A suddenly finds himself
thrown back in time and space into an alternative reality (like in
"back to the Future" or even "Red Alert"), where he gets hit in the
back by B. A then would have to cope with this somehow.

But we can not turn back time as this will let the game completely go
out of sync. So, the AI of A in his own game would have to
fast-forward-simulate a more or less realistic behavoir of A being hit
by B, eg. countersteering a rather minor bump, or crashing in pieces
if the hit was hard, and then the real A could take over again, either
on the track on a different spot as he was used to be - or in a
burning wreck. 8-/
Afterwards, both drivers then would have watch the replay over and
over again to find out what had happened.

Well, best would be of course a game that included different methods
of coping with the latency problem.

--
   _____
 /_______\              .\\ a t t h e a d
I  XT /~~~~                    
I  500\_____       1977' Yamaha XT.Rex 500 Enduro
 \____/\__I_I      http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Steve

Think of it as racing against the AI, but instead of the input to the AI coming
from the simulator it's coming from real players all around the world. If a real
player makes a mistake, the AI representing him will make a similar mistake
further down the road, and this mistake will not look unrealistic whatsoever, or
it's a bad implementation of our proposal :o).

Say you were racing Spa with this idea implemented. It's raining and you're on
your way lapping the field, you lucky sod :o). Soon your about to lap yet
another driver, he wants to make this as easy as possible for you and slows down
on a straight to let by the AI representing you, but he forgets that the AI cant
see very well in the rain, so it runs straight into him crippeling him. This is
a driver mistake by him and he pays the price, but the AI representing him will
also make this mistake, but on the next straight or later down the same
straight. The AI will continue at normal pace until it makes the same mistake
(slowing down on a straight). Now it's all up to you; Do you see the AI slowing
down in front of you in time or dont you? You could actually get by without
crashing and then you continue your race, but "Coulthard" (the other driver) is
out.

That's so true, so if we want global online racing, I dont see any other
solution than the one we propose - Racing the AI, but online.

Unrealistic, I agree, but boring, I guess I would have to test before I know. I
think it would require different tactics. It will be much like competitive
cycling I guess, where you have to have some mental strength left for the finish
instead of cyclings physical.

Actually here is an advantage with the global online racing proposal, cause it
will act as a filter on the real players, perhaps filtering stupid driving. If
someone for example starts to drive the other way, this could be filtered out,
so the AI will in all other simulations just come to a rest on the grass.

/Christer
--
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o))

Racing online comes down to two things - positioning and passing. The
system described allows positioning after a fashion - you can chase
someone down to set up a move, and you can push to stay in front,
although you don't know actually if the person is where you think they
are. The passing however will be like having a bath with your coat on.
Did the other person really pass you there or did you hold him off -
or is the "AI" behind you going to power by on the next straight
because you're really now second?

It's a nice solution to race around the world, but it really holds no
attraction for me personally. I'd rather look for opponents closer to
home and truly race them. The best moments in GPL online have been the
close quarters moves - two people are tied together and watching every
tiny nuance of the other car's behaviour. Closing them down under
braking, watching for feints and dives, and discussing after the race
why someone did that move or how they managed to do something else.
Not much fun when they answer "I didn't", and it was done by the AI.

The above is just my opinion, and I believe that a lot of people would
like such a system as it opens up more potential opponents to
participate in a form of racing. You just need to get someone to
incorporate it now... :-)

Cheers!
John

GPL online sounds fantastic - although my Cx166+ is cowering in a sorry
heap at the thought of trying to run it. Time for some investment soon I
feel!
Once I can run it properly (and finish building my pedals this week)
I'll hopefully be looking for online racing in the UK.
Anyway I'm off to sell my soul to the bank manager!
--
Mike Wallace [Member of the Worlds Greatest GP2 Hotlap League]