rec.autos.simulators

by **Grit** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

I'd wager that Papy got heavily into developement of
NASCAR 3 w/GPL physics, discovered it was just
gonna be a disaster to try and market it with "PII450
Minimum Requirements" and quickly did the most they
could with the tried n' true N2 engine to keep the sim
community from rioting. But, then again, I'm often
mistaken.

N3 is exactly what they said it was gonna be. What
exactly is your point? That they sold you exactly what
they said they were gonna sell you? Well...yer right.
They did. I think your critque should be copied and
saved to your hard drive for when NASCAR 4 comes
out (if it too uses the ol' N2 <cough> physics).

Personaly, I'd paid my $50 for free multiplayer and
the option to use the car of your choice in multiplayer.

--
Gritz

"Don't you smart me! Cuz when you smart me...
It ruins it."
Bernie Bernbaum

> > Hey whiner, tell me where to get a better NASCAR sim. Take it back to
> > Hastings and then shut up.

> Gee.

> There's an argument.

> Settling is bullshit. If it weren't for the screwy licensing system and
> the shear threat of having lawyers unleashed upon someone willing to ante
> up a better NASCAR sim, I'm sure this thing would have been outclassed or
> discontinued altogether before it's now lame pathetic third incarnation.

> Welcome to Usenet. Get used to reading opinions that differ from your
> own, genius. If you can't handle that, find another hobby.

> -j.c.h.

by **Extract** » Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:00:00

There is no way the average *** user could play GPL with 43 cars on
the track and not have a huge frame rate problem. Every users strives
for 30 fps. Nascar fields require 43 cars on at the same time. Yes
the GPl engine is great, yes its more "sim" than Nascar3. Many of us
like GPL, but also love racing against 42 other cars at 30 fps in
Nascar3.

Ex

by **Extract** » Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Couldn't say it any better.

Ex

by **Rexv** » Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:00:00

On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 14:37:18 -0400, "Shannon Tate"

>Just curious. Becuase I haven't, but have any of you actually done 180mph
>on an oval track, or even 130 on a road course for that matter.

>Just curious.. If so, then it's good to hear an honest opinion of what the
>sim should be doing.

>If not, then PLEASE quit telling us what it SHOULD feel like!

180 on an oval? No. 130 on a road course? Yes. Will be doing it again
shortly at Sebring.

____________________
Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Fair enough, Ed.
The reason I ask (apart from just being starled by the concept!) is that
here it is not sufficient just to "not like" a game in order to have it
refunded/replaced. Some outlets (EB possibly) may do so but it is not a
requirement under our legislation...in this State anyway.

I was directly involved in the retail of entertainment software for about
seven years and we had a rather strict policy of not refunding/replacing
unless the software was faulty and certainly no reimbur***t in any shape
or form (if the box was opened) simply because of an "I don't like it"
reason.

There was (obviously) a rather annoyed reaction to this policy, to the
extent that we even had to explain the reason to the consumer affairs body.
The reason was simple: unlike a toaster, electric shaver, coffee-maker etc.,
an opened package of software allowed the purchaser to copy the contents (be
it CD or floppy) so therefore to replace the contents simply on the basis of
dislike was leaving us open to exploitation.

After this was introduced the number of returns, particularly from juvenile
customers, dropped significantly.

BK

> On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:31:15 +1000,

> >In the USA, as a general rule can you simply return software because you
> >don't like it?
> >If so, you have some very liberal consumer laws.

> No, its up to the merchant. Electronics Boutique, for example,
> will accept opened returns, no questions asked, for 10 days.
> I believe they have the same policy in the U.K, and Australia.

> * rrevved at mindspring dot com
> * unit.26 s.p.u.t.u.m.
> * http://www.racesimcentral.net/

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by **Bruce Kennewel** » Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Dunno. Ask them, Bob.

BK

> Then my question is: why did these geniuses go out and buy it anyway and
THEN ***
> about it?

> > The detractors are saying what a lot of others were saying prior to its
> > release: that compared to what preceeded it, N3 is not a _major_
> > improvement over N2.

> > It seems to me that this argument is based on the fact that these people
> > have all experienced the heights of realism offered by GPL and N3,
whilst
> > containing "improvements" over N2, is still on a far lower plateau.

> > Just the opinion of a disinterested party.

> > BK

> --
> Bob Curtin
> Worcester Area Strategy & Tactics Exchange
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> "If God had intended men to join the Army he would have given us green,
baggy skin"

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by **Bruce Kennewel** » Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:00:00

(snip)
The thing that will get to most retailers is that many people will go
out, buy the CD, burn a copy or 30,then return the original. That
means they get the game for basically free (as well as all their
friends) and the retailer is stuck with an opened unsuable box.

(unsnip)

EXACTLY the reason we refused to refund on opened boxes!! (See seperate
post)
BK

> >This great return policy has given Electronics Boutique a large number
> >of loyal followers myself included, I personally buy *all* my game
software
> >there, even though I can usually purchase it much cheaper at other
stores.

> Agreed. I returned N3 this morning with no hassles and traded it out
> for another online game. They never give you any hassles though this
> is perhaps the 2nd game I have ever returned on the basis that it
> sucks (two others just because they didn't work).

> >Overall, I think it's great that we are able to return software that is
not up
> >to par, especially with the number of unfinished titles that seem to be
> >rushed to market each X-mas in unfinished condition, this however doesn't
> >mean consumers should abuse it and ignore the responsibility of looking
> >at previews and reviews of titles before they buy them so that they know
> >in advance what to expect.

> The thing that will get to most retailers is that many people will go
> out, buy the CD, burn a copy or 30,then return the original. That
> means they get the game for basically free (as well as all their
> friends) and the retailer is stuck with an opened unsuable box.

> ____________________
> Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements

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by **Bruce Kennewel** » Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Well, in that case it most certainly is extremely liberal and is most
definitely biased against the retailer.

> > On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:31:15 +1000,

> > >In the USA, as a general rule can you simply return software because
you
> > >don't like it?
> > >If so, you have some very liberal consumer laws.

> > No, its up to the merchant. Electronics Boutique, for example,
> > will accept opened returns, no questions asked, for 10 days.
> > I believe they have the same policy in the U.K, and Australia.

> > * rrevved at mindspring dot com
> > * unit.26 s.p.u.t.u.m.
> > * http://www.cabal.net

> In the US, it is the law that anything a consumer buys can be returned
> for a full refund as long as it's returned with in (I think it is...) 10
> days. no matter what the condition the product is in when being
> returned. It's one of those laws that the
> corporations/stores/dealers.... don't want you to know about. This also
> includes buying a Ferrari at 200,000.00. You can crash that ferrari and
> return it for a full refund with in 10(?) days. We found that out while
> looking for stupid and still active laws. Did you know it's illegal to
> hunt wild Zebra in NYS? ;-)
> --
> =========================================
> Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing?
> =========================================
> Racing online with the help of......

> Race Communications Association
> http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html
> Holodyne Engineering

> Mystic Music

> (have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

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by **Ruud van Ga** » Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:00:00

>On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 14:37:18 -0400, "Shannon Tate"

>>Just curious. Becuase I haven't, but have any of you actually done 180mph
>>on an oval track, or even 130 on a road course for that matter.

>>Just curious.. If so, then it's good to hear an honest opinion of what the
>>sim should be doing.

>>If not, then PLEASE quit telling us what it SHOULD feel like!

>180 on an oval? No. 130 on a road course? Yes. Will be doing it again
>shortly at Sebring.

Hahaha, 130 on a road course? Yes, in Portugal, and in France once.
But just in a regular car. Wasn't racing, just *driving*. :)

Ruud van Gaal
MarketGraph / MachTech: http://www.marketgraph.nl
Art: http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery

by **Joel Willstei** » Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:00:00

>On Tue, 21 Sep 1999 21:46:42 -0500, "Gary A. Burns"

>That old cliche could apply, but then "If it ain't broke and hasn't
>been fixed, why pay for it all over again? N3 is pretty cool, and
>somewhat improved compared to N2, but there's no doubt it could have
>been so much better if offering the same involvement and driving
>dynamics as GPL.

>Surely you can't disagree with that?

>Cheers!
>John

John,

We're back to the same topic from months and months ago. Nascar3 with he
gpl physics engine would require a more powerful system than any of us have.

Personally, I feel that Sierra/Papyrus made the right decision. I find
Nas3 much improved over N2. But if I had to turn off most of the graphics
and cut back on everything else just to be able to get decent frame rates
with the gpl physics engine,then I would have passed on purchasing Nas3
until I upgraded again. And I only upgrade once per year.

Joel Willstein

by **Joel Willstei** » Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:00:00

>> Not having N3 or NASCAR Rev.. I just wonder what the differences are?
>> I'd assume the graphics are better in N3, so lets skip the graphics
>> part. What about the physics?

>Heya Mike... I occasionally race against you online in GPL....

>....Put simply, comparing N3 physics to GPL physics is similar to comparing
the
>physics/handling of a Hot Wheel toys car to a production Ferrari.
>Played a little more last night. You _know_ something's wrong when you
have to set
>a separate button/control key to use reverse in a driving game instead of
being
>able to shift to reverse using your shifter/shift paddle/button mapped to
the
>shifter. Basically, using reverse doesn't even require the gas pedal be
depressed.

>Lame beyond all belief.

Mike,

I've raced and chatted with you over at Game Spy Boy,so you know that
I'm a die heart gpl racer. But I've got to disagree with you about Nascar3.
I'm really enjoying it,and I like the FREE online racing. The AIs are so
much tougher to race against now that there is no comparing them to their
lame brothers in Nascar2. I do find the cars handle somewhat differently and
are more touchy to the throttle/brake inputs. The over all graphics are a
big step forward from Nascar2.

However,I do agree with you about the control issues. I have a MSFF
wheel,and thought that is was ridiculous to have to setup a profile just to
be able to use the paddles to up and down shift,as well as reverse. This
took quite some time figure out,as the manual just says to hit what control
buttons you want for each function. There is no mention of the above
problems.

Joel Willstein

by **Joel Willstei** » Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:00:00

> In the US, it is the law that anything a consumer buys can be returned
>for a full refund as long as it's returned with in (I think it is...) 10
>days. no matter what the condition the product is in when being
>returned. It's one of those laws that the
>corporations/stores/dealers.... don't want you to know about. This also
>includes buying a Ferrari at 200,000.00. You can crash that ferrari and
>return it for a full refund with in 10(?) days. We found that out while
>looking for stupid and still active laws. Did you know it's illegal to
>hunt wild Zebra in NYS? ;-)
>--
>=========================================
>Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing?
>=========================================

Mike,

I hate to burst your legal bubble,but there is no such law. Consumer
laws are per state,and vary a great deal. But for the most part most states
simply say that whatever your corp. return policy is,it must be posted
clearly by the registers. You may have a return policy for x period of days
with a receipt,or exchange only without it. Some companies (Burlington Coat
Factory Whse 200+ stores last time I checked),only does exchanges no cash or
credit card refunds. While some deep discount companies have a final sale
only policy.

Joel Willstein

by **Toni Lassil** » Sat, 25 Sep 1999 04:00:00

> (snip)
> The thing that will get to most retailers is that many people will go
> out, buy the CD, burn a copy or 30,then return the original. That
> means they get the game for basically free (as well as all their
> friends) and the retailer is stuck with an opened unsuable box.

> (unsnip)

What a nice assumption to base business on: All customers are criminals!

--
Toni Lassila

by **Rexv** » Sat, 25 Sep 1999 04:00:00

On Fri, 24 Sep 1999 07:07:03 +0300, Toni Lassila

>> (snip)
>> The thing that will get to most retailers is that many people will go
>> out, buy the CD, burn a copy or 30,then return the original. That
>> means they get the game for basically free (as well as all their
>> friends) and the retailer is stuck with an opened unsuable box.

>> (unsnip)

>What a nice assumption to base business on: All customers are criminals!

Not all but there are quite a few who are. Ever heard of warez or
software pirating? Now that CD burners are so cheap and easy to use
you can bet your retail dollar that a high degree of illegal copies
are being made.

____________________
Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Sat, 25 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Ahem! Excuse me, but that wasn't what the poster (not me, by the way!) was
saying.

He was saying that _MANY_ poeple will do it....which was exactly as we
found. Note! "MANY".....not "ALL".

How on earth you arrive at the conclusion, "all customers are criminals",
beggars belief!

> > (snip)
> > The thing that will get to most retailers is that many people will go
> > out, buy the CD, burn a copy or 30,then return the original. That
> > means they get the game for basically free (as well as all their
> > friends) and the retailer is stuck with an opened unsuable box.

> > (unsnip)

> What a nice assumption to base business on: All customers are criminals!

> --
> Toni Lassila

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rec.autos.simulators

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.