rec.autos.simulators

by **Neil Rain** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

> > So you don't read this newsgroup? What lead you to believe that
> > the physics would compare, in any way, to GPL?

> I do on occasion.... not a habitual reader. Depends on the software I'm
> concentrating on at the time. When GPL came out, I was here, though perhaps less
> vocal. I think I remember spewing a drunken post about how incredibly hard GPL was
> ... though I was only 3 days into the game, and driving Zandy with a BAL of .08%
> making it a little difficult to find the track they hid in all that grass.

> I never expected this to compare to GPL in the physics sense. I suppose I was just
> expecting _something_ new for my money.... I mean the damn 'Paintkit' tutorial in
> the readme.txt file is even ripped off from a public domain guide that came
> out with Nascar 1 or 2 (if I remember right).

> Not only that, but I consider the people here to be the lucky few who actually use
> Usenet to their best advantage when they can. What about the other people who
> don't use this for any kind of reference? Seems that quite a few of the "***
> news" (used VERY loosely) sites are raving about how wonderful NASCAR 3 i and what
> a breakthrough in *** technology the program is an example of. Makes me wonder
> the age of the author of said articles, and whether or not they've ever even
> installed one of the other "versions" in this series.

Well, this is why a lot of games go through several versions - if the
original was good enough, why shouldn't they "milk" it with new
versions?

If the mindless masses go out and buy it, it might even pay for a new
innovative game some time down the road.

This especially applies if the current graphics hardware etc. wasn't
around at the time of the original release, so it's worth an update just
to incorporate these things.

At least with computer games the sequel is as normally at least as good
as the original - unlike the movies!

The only problem, of course, is that you might have been expecting
something better...

by **pqt2** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

I'd be very interested in just where this law can be found. If it is true for the
whole US as implied it has to be a Federal Statute. I'd love to know just what
U.S. Code you found that covers this so I can use it in the future. Please
advise. Paul

> In the US, it is the law that anything a consumer buys can be returned
> for a full refund as long as it's returned with in (I think it is...) 10
> days. no matter what the condition the product is in when being
> returned. It's one of those laws that the
> corporations/stores/dealers.... don't want you to know about. This also
> includes buying a Ferrari at 200,000.00. You can crash that ferrari and
> return it for a full refund with in 10(?) days. We found that out while
> looking for stupid and still active laws. Did you know it's illegal to
> hunt wild Zebra in NYS? ;-)
> --

by **pqt2** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Well, yes Texas is still a "country" but Louisiana is a "State". ;-) Paul

> There is also a nice law on the books in some county in the US (keep
> thinking it's Louisianna or Texas but not sure) that if your animals

by **'John' Joao Sil** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

This great return policy has given Electronics Boutique a large number
of loyal followers myself included, I personally buy *all* my game software
there, even though I can usually purchase it much cheaper at other stores.

It is worth it to me to pay a bit more money for something, knowing I can
return it if it stinks, something which for a while there was happening
with a lot of games rushed to market, (including more than a few sports titles
by Sierra which I returned, so buggy as to be unplayable).

Luckily I've only had to return a couple of racing sim titles in the past
(NFS2, and Test Drive Offroad that I can remember)

Overall, I think it's great that we are able to return software that is not up
to par, especially with the number of unfinished titles that seem to be
rushed to market each X-mas in unfinished condition, this however doesn't
mean consumers should abuse it and ignore the responsibility of looking
at previews and reviews of titles before they buy them so that they know
in advance what to expect.

As far as N3 goes....
I haven't bought N3 yet, I already knew that the N3 physics model isn't my
cup of tea (and I've never been too crazy about 0val racing :-). I listened
to the previews and info here on r.a.s. and had a chance to try it at a
friend's house, to me N3 felt the same as N2 with prettier eyecandy and
sounds, i.e. no brake lockup or oversteer etc, and truthfully I don't want
to spend $49.95 on a sim which already know I won't be too crazy about.

I *am* going to purchase N3 though eventually, mostly to support Papyrus and
also because I'm hoping there will be some great Touring Car patches coming
from The Pits, but I'm waiting until N3 shows up at Costco or something where
it will be $29.99 instead of $49.99 and since I already know what to expect
I don't have to worry about being able to return it or not.

I purchased N2 back when it came out knowing the same things and for similar
reasons. Anyone here in r.a.s. who didn't know what to expect in N3 must've
not payed attention to all the previews and info posted here about it, it's
definitely no GPL but we all knew this in advance.

Seeyas on the track.

--John (Joao) Silva

>On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 20:31:15 +1000,

>>In the USA, as a general rule can you simply return software because you
>>don't like it?
>>If so, you have some very liberal consumer laws.

>No, its up to the merchant. Electronics Boutique, for example,
>will accept opened returns, no questions asked, for 10 days.
>I believe they have the same policy in the U.K, and Australia.

>* rrevved at mindspring dot com
>* unit.26 s.p.u.t.u.m.
>* http://www.cabal.net

by **Shannon Tat** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

To the reverse issue listed below, that's quite a stretch. It appears
you're just trying to find something else to whine about there.

The reason for a separate key for reverse is obvious. Think about how it
works in a real car for a minute. You need to back up quickly, you (1) hit
the clutch (which isn't currently available to computer sims), (2) place the
shifter directly in reverse (something else not yet available in computer
sims). All of this simultaneously.

So, if you want that kind of convenience in a sim, then you need a separate
key. But, you're so smart, I guess you already new that.

Shannon T

> > Not having N3 or NASCAR Rev.. I just wonder what the differences are?
> > I'd assume the graphics are better in N3, so lets skip the graphics
> > part. What about the physics?

> Heya Mike... I occasionally race against you online in GPL.

> Put simply, comparing N3 physics to GPL physics is similar to comparing
the
> physics/handling of a Hot Wheel toys car to a production Ferrari. There
is only so
> much movement allowed to the player that is needed to navigate a set
course around
> the track... usually turning to the left. While I expected that, I didn't
expect
> the same world constraints to be in place, nor the same damn physics
engines of the
> previous Nascar games dating back to 1995 or 1996. Absolutely nothing has
changed
> since then. The big thing about N3 seems to be "body roll" of some cars,
which is
> nothing more than a graphics enhancement when a car reaches a certain
steering
> angle, I'm sure. There is no independant wheel physics that I can feel.
You
> basically feel like you're driving a train.

> Played a little more last night. You _know_ something's wrong when you
have to set
> a separate button/control key to use reverse in a driving game instead of
being
> able to shift to reverse using your shifter/shift paddle/button mapped to
the
> shifter. Basically, using reverse doesn't even require the gas pedal be
depressed.

> Lame beyond all belief.

> --

> -j.c.h.
> spill /|t frenzy dawt cawm

by **Shannon Tat** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

There has to be something different. A friend of mine has N2 and tried N3.
He has a cyrix 300MHz and can play N2 fine, but as for N3, not a chance.

I agree that this product doesn't constitute a new name, but that's
typically the way the computer market works in alot (not all) of cases.
Take the biggest yet, Win95 and Win98.

Just MHO..

Shannon T

> > Go play your GPL. Leave the real racing to us.

> Heh. "Real racing"? I've raced not only oval track in San Antonio (HWY16
> Raceway), but also 4-wheelers, as well as taken a turn at drag racing.

> As far as sims go, anyone who pits GPL against Nascar 3 (read as "arcade
> wanna be") and compares them on a basis of 'reality' that actually _owns_
> both games would probably laugh until they bled at your above comment.

> > The reason that the game
> > does not seem that different from N1/N2 is that the old saying "If it
ain't
> > broke, then don't fix it" applies.

> This is your reasoning?

> Bullshit.

> The reason the game does not seem different is because it _isn't_
> different. I just examined the executable myself, comparing certain
> sections with the Nascar 2 cd I still have, and to my suprise </sarcasm>
> there are even certain segments in the binary that are mirror images of
> Nascar 2.

> It's an addon pack. Another lame attempt to make some serious cash by
> dangling a Nascar emblem in front of potential software purchasers faces.

> In other words, garbage.

> > Get over it and stop your crying.

> Count on it. It's going back tomorrow.

> --

> -j.c.h.

by **Shannon Tat** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Just curious. Becuase I haven't, but have any of you actually done 180mph
on an oval track, or even 130 on a road course for that matter.

Just curious.. If so, then it's good to hear an honest opinion of what the
sim should be doing.

If not, then PLEASE quit telling us what it SHOULD feel like!

Shannon T

> On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 08:55:39 -0400, Michael Barlow

> > Not having N3 or NASCAR Rev.. I just wonder what the differences are?
> >I'd assume the graphics are better in N3, so lets skip the graphics
> >part. What about the physics?

> Straight up the physics in N3 are a joke. You can go flat out, nail
> the brakes, drive through corners flat out, hit walls, spin, etc.
> Nothing of them is even remotely real nor are most of the handling
> adjustments. This is about the least realistic sim I have ever dealt
> with this side of Pole Position.. Remember that one? It came out on
> the Atari 2600 after debuting in an arcade?

> ____________________
> Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements

by **Rexv** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

>This great return policy has given Electronics Boutique a large number
>of loyal followers myself included, I personally buy *all* my game software
>there, even though I can usually purchase it much cheaper at other stores.

Agreed. I returned N3 this morning with no hassles and traded it out
for another online game. They never give you any hassles though this
is perhaps the 2nd game I have ever returned on the basis that it
sucks (two others just because they didn't work).

The thing that will get to most retailers is that many people will go
out, buy the CD, burn a copy or 30,then return the original. That
means they get the game for basically free (as well as all their
friends) and the retailer is stuck with an opened unsuable box.

____________________
Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements

by **Rexv** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

>Well, yes Texas is still a "country" but Louisiana is a "State". ;-) Paul

Sorry, that should have read 'it's IN Lou or Tex' :) Just remember,
everthing is big in Texas' :)

____________________
Hydrogen and Stupidity.. The two most universal elements

by **Michael Barlo** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

> To the reverse issue listed below, that's quite a stretch. It appears
> you're just trying to find something else to whine about there.

> The reason for a separate key for reverse is obvious. Think about how it
> works in a real car for a minute. You need to back up quickly, you (1) hit
> the clutch (which isn't currently available to computer sims), (2) place the
> shifter directly in reverse (something else not yet available in computer
> sims). All of this simultaneously.

> So, if you want that kind of convenience in a sim, then you need a separate
> key. But, you're so smart, I guess you already new that.

Umm.. GPL does have the clutch available. It's available as analog
too, as in, I can modulate the clutch in GPL just like a real car, not
like a button where it's on/off. The clutching action in GPL (out side
of my peddle swing and spring) feels like a competition clutch where
there's very little play between engaged and disengaged. I have placed
the car into 5th gear and floored the gas. I slowly lifted the clutch
and watched the rpms slowly come down and the car inch forward (slipping
the clutch). So, That is available to computer sims. just not too many
yet. The function of the clutch is yet to be usable as a gear changing
tool as there isn't a sim out there that will grind the gears if you
don't use it. To get off track a bit, there are many uses for an analog
clutch out side of changing gears in GPL.

As far as the reverse button/key I kind of agree with you that in a sim
it's worthless to have anything else. however, for "simulation" values,
I don't like having a button to press for reverse and have the car move
backwards while having the car still in fourth gear. I believe there
are many sims out that you have to change into reverse gear to move
backwards. That is something that papy could have implemented in
NASCAR3 without any fps hit (IMO). I'd *assume* that there are many
things that Papy could have put in there and those items would not have
diminished the sim at all but decided not to just for those that don't
race for realism but rather race the "game" just for simple
entertainment.

--
=========================================
Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing?
=========================================
Racing online with the help of......

Race Communications Association
http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html
Holodyne Engineering

Mystic Music

(have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

by **Shannon Tat** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

As to the clutch I stand corrected.

But, (not counting the Act Labs Rally shifter which isn't quite out and
isn't yet supported, is it? :-)), you would still have to shift back, back,
back, back and then gas..

If you need reverse quick, you can't get it (as far as I'm aware) without a
key for it.

Shannon T

> To the reverse issue listed below, that's quite a stretch. It appears
> you're just trying to find something else to whine about there.

> The reason for a separate key for reverse is obvious. Think about how it
> works in a real car for a minute. You need to back up quickly, you (1)
hit
> the clutch (which isn't currently available to computer sims), (2) place
the
> shifter directly in reverse (something else not yet available in computer
> sims). All of this simultaneously.

> So, if you want that kind of convenience in a sim, then you need a
separate
> key. But, you're so smart, I guess you already new that.

> Shannon T

> > > Not having N3 or NASCAR Rev.. I just wonder what the differences are?
> > > I'd assume the graphics are better in N3, so lets skip the graphics
> > > part. What about the physics?

> > Heya Mike... I occasionally race against you online in GPL.

> > Put simply, comparing N3 physics to GPL physics is similar to comparing
> the
> > physics/handling of a Hot Wheel toys car to a production Ferrari. There
> is only so
> > much movement allowed to the player that is needed to navigate a set
> course around
> > the track... usually turning to the left. While I expected that, I
didn't
> expect
> > the same world constraints to be in place, nor the same damn physics
> engines of the
> > previous Nascar games dating back to 1995 or 1996. Absolutely nothing
has
> changed
> > since then. The big thing about N3 seems to be "body roll" of some
cars,
> which is
> > nothing more than a graphics enhancement when a car reaches a certain
> steering
> > angle, I'm sure. There is no independant wheel physics that I can feel.
> You
> > basically feel like you're driving a train.

> > Played a little more last night. You _know_ something's wrong when you
> have to set
> > a separate button/control key to use reverse in a driving game instead
of
> being
> > able to shift to reverse using your shifter/shift paddle/button mapped
to
> the
> > shifter. Basically, using reverse doesn't even require the gas pedal be
> depressed.

> > Lame beyond all belief.

> > --

> > -j.c.h.
> > spill /|t frenzy dawt cawm

by **Nigel Nichol** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Three sims that I at least know of that use a clutch in its
true form are.

GP2
GPL
Viper Racing

It should have been in Nascar 3 along with reverse selectable
via the gear shifter.

--
Redline Race Controls

http://www.wave.co.nz/pages/lakewood/Redline2.htm

Nigel of Lakewood Motorsports
Hamilton
New Zealand

by **'John' Joao Sil** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Rick you might want to give some GPL online leagues a try (in case you
haven't), you will find much closer racing that you can experience on your
average VROC pickup race.

Sometimes the racing is so close and clean that it amazes me, especially if
you are racing at Pro damage. Just as an example last weekend in one of the
GPL Leagues I race in, qualifying for an online PRO Long Mosport race,
.06 sec covered the top 4 places on the grid (six 1/100ths of a sec!)
That is how close the competition is, and these leagues are composed of
usually clean racers (pure hotlappers never finish enough to stay in the
points in leagues and usually quit), and you can feel comfortable going
wheel to wheel with the other league racers lap after lap because you've been
racing with them for the past few months and learn how they react to
different situations. Very different from the chaos and randomness of
pickup races on VROC, although those can often be fun too.

I definitely recommend anyone who races on VROC and has never tried an
online GPL league, do yourself a favor and try it, you'll be amazed.

I never thought I had enough time, commitment or concentration to run in
an online league, but was talked into trying it, all I can say is it's as
close to the real e***ment and sometimes pressure of *real life* racing
as I think I want to come :-)

Seeyas on the track.

--John (Joao) Silva

by **'John' Joao Sil** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

>The thing that will get to most retailers is that many people will go
>out, buy the CD, burn a copy or 30,then return the original. That
>means they get the game for basically free (as well as all their
>friends) and the retailer is stuck with an opened unsuable box.

True, especially with the relatively inexpensive CD burners out nowadays.

I always wondered what happened with the software that is returned, does
it go back to the Publisher or the programming house itself? wonder who
will get your N3 back, Sierra or Papyrus?

Maybe the number of returns on software gives the programmers some idea
of when marketing hype for the game was good enough that it sold, but the
number of returned copies shows that consumers were disappointed with the
game itself after falling prone to the initial marketing hype.

Seeyas on the track.

--John (Joao) Silva

by **Joel Willstei** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

>Geeez , go race yourself online for 40 minutes while waiting for someone
to
>either wait up for you, or you wait up for someone , so you can actually
see
>another car on the track. I love GPL for the pure fun of driving the cars.
>But if I want to actually race, I do it off-line with GPL. If I want great,
>competitive on-line racing, N3 is for me. That is the big difference
between
>these two sims. N3 gives you the on-line racing experience, GPL gives you
the
>realism.

>I love them both

>Rick Sweeney

Rick,well said. I've found that all too many gpl online races end up being
nothing more than a excersize in hot lapping. So I find myself spending
more and more time running off line races against a full field.

Joel Willstein

rec.autos.simulators

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.

GPL makes Nascar 3 just look silly.