rec.autos.simulators

Legends/Riverside

John Simmo

Legends/Riverside

by John Simmo » Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:00:00


says...


>>Perhaps the online "cutting" doesn't compare (or come close) with what
>>really went on, but my saying the real drivers cut the corners holds
>>water with me - I saw enough of it with my own eyes in other races to
>>believe it possible for the Nascar drivers to do same.

>Fair enough.

The issue isn't whether or not corner cuting is done.  Abnybody that's
ever seen a road course race knows it's done.  The issue is whether or
not drivers "straighten out a curve" (or a series of curves) to the
extent that it's done online at Riverside, and I can assure you that's
not the case.

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Scott Humphrie

Legends/Riverside

by Scott Humphrie » Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:00:00

If you run through the chicane at the Glen its a penalty

Ive seen people online who have got the N99 converter to remove the chichane
wall to work in N3 and and won races (and caused wrecks) that way.



> > ever watched a Rally race? What's the difference.  Because you go in
circles
> > on a road course you shouldn't try to be faster when you have the
> > opportunity Isn't that the whole part of racing?

> Oh so now your comparing NASCAR road course racing with Rally racing?
> They are 2 different entities, from 2 different racing worlds. Besides,
> -most- of the time they don't even race on roads. And they don't do
> laps, giving them the opportunity to cut the same corner over and over.
> Poor defense.
>  Yes, going faster is the point of racing, but sportsmanship is the
> point competition. Plain and simple, if you get 4 wheels off the course
> on purpose lap after lap, you are cheating. You are cheating yourself,
> because you haven't learned the correct way to drive the course, and you
> are cheating your fellow racers because now they either have to cut too,
> or be left behind when racing you. For someone who was, and still is so
> worried about cheating, you sure did jump at your first opportunity to
> do so, and are now forcing others to do so, in order to "keep up with
> the Jones'" When running at the Glen, do you see cars cut through the
> chicane? No. Why not? It's faster isn't it?

> > How do you know how much I cut the esses?

> You have attested before to repeatedly doing so in prior posts regarding
> lap times.

> > It's the natural selection somehow. The ones with the biggest
imagination,
> > who can push the car enough to be faster will be the winners.

>  Natural Selection? LOL  Oh, and cutting corners is hardly "pushing a
> car". More like "pushing the rules".

> >Uh... just push the darn car, I can do an easy high 1:23 using ACE.

> Like I said, send a replay over of you doing those times without cutting
> the turns. Till then, to me, they have no merit. I am trying to keep the
> car on the surface at all times. To me that is one of the MAIN rules of
> racing. Any dust kicked up by me, is a mistake on my part, unfortunately
> that still is a lot of dust though :)

> "Everybody else does is so why not me?"----- Dare to be different Frank.

Scott Humphrie

Legends/Riverside

by Scott Humphrie » Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:00:00

lol - 3 wide

> My problem with Riverside is that when I'm extering the esses three
a***
> (with AI cars on both sides of me cutting over the dirt), I can only make
it
> all the way through the hard right once out of every 5 times (without an
AI
> car bumping me off in the esses or entering the sharp right).  Does anyone
> make it through the esses cleanly when there are AI cars nearby?  I've
never
> seen a race at Riverside, but I would not have thought that there was a
lot
> of 3-*** racing through these esses.

> Brian



> > I see WAY too many people cutting corners severely at the end
> > of the esses and turning in some fast times. ...

ymenar

Legends/Riverside

by ymenar » Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:00:00


There is a TRK checksum Scott so they are lying.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

ymenar

Legends/Riverside

by ymenar » Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:00:00


I see you have ommited on purpose GPL.  Why did you cut that quote eh ? Poor
defense on your side.  Almost everybody does it yet you don't see people
like you screeming out of their windows like if they have been stolen or
something.  You make a big deal out of nothing.

I went back to NL and calculated how much time I am actually on the sand. A
big whooping 1.5 second.  Yepo everybody, a simple 3/2rd of a second.  Wow
and you think that this over a lap ruins the whole experience ? Well my
fellow there's a minute and 20seconds after that to miss or gain time.

And btw this thread has already existed you should check out dejanews about
that FYI

Well it's up to you to decide how big is the grey zone.  Sorry but I won't
change at all how I race.  Especially since I don't care about NL much. It's
a quality title but another stupid SIERRA decision to competition themselves
with N3 and NL.  But hey Im not surprised at that anymore coming from
Sierra.  So you won't see me on NL.  I'll have fun racing the AI like they
do in real life, and how humans do it in real-life online also.

And btw you probably have never seen people on the NROS put their whole
4tyres in the grass at Watkins Glen or Sears Point.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Outshin

Legends/Riverside

by Outshin » Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:00:00


> I see you have ommited on purpose GPL.  Why did you cut that quote eh ? Poor
> defense on your side.  Almost everybody does it yet you don't see people
> like you screeming out of their windows like if they have been stolen or
> something.  You make a big deal out of nothing.

??? I don't understand? Omitted GPL? GPL was never part of this
discussion. And what quote are you referring to? Poor Defense? you lost
me Frank. And by the way, I'm a far cry from "screaming out my window"
in regards to this. This is the only thread I've had a discussion
regarding the corner cutting, so I would hardly call it "screaming"
about it. As far as making a big deal out of nothing, I make a big deal
out of something that is a big deal to me. Unsportsmanlike conduct.
Deliberately running off course to have faster times, is unsportsmanlike
conduct to me, and really falls under a header of cheating. Like I said
in my last post to you Frank, if your logic was applied the way you want
it to be, then why don't people cut the chicane at the Glen? Or cut
early through turn 11 at Sears Point? It's faster isn't it? It would
improve your lap times wouldn't it? You can't that's why. Because you
have to stay on course. The sand is not part of the race course at
Riverside. And the track does not go straight there.

next..

Listen Frank, first off, it's not how much time you spend on the sand,
it's how much advantage you gain from it. Your on the sand for what you
claim is 1.5 secs.(i'm not sure what 3/2rd is, but I'm hoping it's a
French fraction :) but if it's a typo and you meant 2/3rd's then I want
to know how 1.5=2/3rd, French math perhaps? <G> j/k) But any way, if you
spend 1.5 secs on the sand, and I have to slow down MUCH more to make
the turns correctly, then you gained A LOT more than 1.5 secs. Probably
closer to the point of 3 secs. Now compound that lap after lap, and
guess what. You are building up an extremely unfair advantage.

<sarcasm>
Oh, sry, I didn't know I was supposed to keep up with EVERYTHING that
ever was posted here so as not to repeat anything.
</sarcasm>
Just because a thread already existed means what? That we're not allowed
to discuss it any longer?

Again, you've been using this defense the whole time, yet can't come up
with ANY proof that real people did it in real life. And don't try to
point out Marc's R.Petty photo as proof, you can read my reply to that
if you want to know why. I think your just hoping they did, so you can
justify it. I mean who told you they did? When did you see them do it?
How many races have you ACTUALLY seen at Riverside? I do not for an
instant believe that any real life competitors used the "straight line"
approach the way it is used in the game, without at least incurring some
penalties. Not sure if you get the channel Speedvision or not Frank, but
every so often they run replays of early IROC races at Riverside. I've
watched them on many occasions, and have never seen anyone cutting the
esses, on purpose anyway. These are the only races I've seen at
Riverside, and what I am basing my defense on. But at least I know there
is actual footage to back me up. You on the other hand.....?

So I guess I must lead a sheltered life or something, since I never saw
people deliberately cut corners at those 2 places. But then again, I
don't/didn't race with EVERYONE, so it's of course possible, and in fact
probable. How would I know from the back of the pack anyway :) But
again, just because they do/did it, doesn't make it right. That's the
issue. Not whether "everyone is doing it", but rather that it's wrong to
do it at all. Like I said before Frank---dare to be different. But I bet
when N4 comes, or whatever they want to call it, and the walls are taken
out of the Glen, and Sears, you'll be the first person cutting through
turn 11 at Sears claiming it's ok because you only do it for 1.5
seconds. and besides you think you saw real drivers do it too.

Daxe Rexfor

Legends/Riverside

by Daxe Rexfor » Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:00:00


>(i'm not sure what 3/2rd is, but I'm hoping it's a
>French fraction :)

The last time I saw 3/2rds, It was right before I flushed the toilet.

:O)

~daxe

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ymenar

Legends/Riverside

by ymenar » Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:00:00


Obviously it can, as all the NROS hotlappers on road course knew that in the
chicane at the Glen you had to keep 100+speed by putting all 4tyres on the
grass, and also at Sears Point you could cut the turn after the caroussell
going full car into the grass.

And my GPL quote was ommited.  Almost everybody does it at the Nurburgring.
Especially in the first sections (just at the limits of the gates) and in
some fast esses around the circuit.  Yet you don't see those people scream
out about the problem, because there is not one.

The thing is, you make people think that the 1.5second I pass on the sand
makes me do incredible laptimes on the track.  Which is false, there is more
than a dozen corners after to gain speed on.  Its the only place where I
touch the sand.  I don't do it in T1 and T2 because you loose speed there.
Thinking that because your in the sand you will be faster is false.  Your
going slower there, it's very slippery and you need total control of the
car.  The momentum you have gained on the stretch makes for a very unstable
car.

Actually it was a translation.  3/2rd of a second is 1.5second for me.  How
should it be written in English ? ;)

I was just saying this as an addition, to get more information you know...

So give me a proof that the real people did not do it in real life also.

Just quoting what you see on TV is not a proof to me.  I could say the same
thing also, that I've actually seen cars putting the full car on the sand.

As in the top5 in road tracks on the NROS, be sure that to do 126+mph
laptimes at the Glen you had to do it ;-)

No, because Nascar Racing 4 will have a gate system like GPL.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Don Burnett

Legends/Riverside

by Don Burnett » Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:00:00

ROTFLMAO

--
Don Burnette
Dburn in N3 and Legends



> >(i'm not sure what 3/2rd is, but I'm hoping it's a
> >French fraction :)

> The last time I saw 3/2rds, It was right before I flushed the toilet.

> :O)

> ~daxe

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John Simmo

Legends/Riverside

by John Simmo » Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:00:00

I've had no chocie but to muzzle ymenard from any further racing on my
servers.  He refuses to see the point and insists that his way is the
correct way, when 9 out of 10 people participating in this thread are
trying to convince him that four-wheels off the track lap after lap on
ANY road course is NOT sporting.

Ymenard, your arguments are groundless and lack any sign that you have
any integrity or honor whatsoever.  Have a nice life elsewhere.

--
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If you want to send me email, go to the first URL shown
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Daxe Rexfor

Legends/Riverside

by Daxe Rexfor » Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:00:00


>Actually it was a translation.  3/2rd of a second is 1.5second for me.  How
>should it be written in English ? ;)

3/2 would have sufficed, though 1.5 is probably more correct.  The amu***t
comes from you appending 'rd' after the 2.  If you were listing the places
in a race, you would write them this way:

1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th
10th
etc.

You were not referring to ordinal numbers, however, and the 2 in your
fraction actually represents the words "halves."  Were that number to have
been a 3, you would have been referring to "thirds."  Either way, there is
no need to suffix the fraction with any letters.  3/2 = 1.5, so both are
technically correct and the variation on the name of the number is assumed
in the case of a mathematical expression.

Now some math or English grad student can tell me why I am wrong.

~daxe

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ymenar

Legends/Riverside

by ymenar » Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:00:00


LOL.  So you cannot accept to simply discuss about a situation so you muzzle
(?).  Sure hmm "ok".

Yourself said that my points are non-sense, yet I have never actually flamed
you for nothing in this discussion.  Like I said.. why do you think Rally
Racing or GPL cannot compare? "why" exactly? What are your reasons ? THe
only thing you say it's that it's non-sense, yet you do not bring any point
or additional reason. Why "that", tell us what you feel !!!

But like I said, you won't see me on N3 or NL anymore, so why waste your
time.  Why am I wasting my time here ? This thread is pathetic...

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

ymenar

Legends/Riverside

by ymenar » Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:00:00


Thanks.  Somehow when I typed that I thought to myself it should be written
like it is spoken.  I said to myself "three thirds of a second", so I wrote
the additional suffix "rd".

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Tracey A Mille

Legends/Riverside

by Tracey A Mille » Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:00:00

"John Simmons" wrote

Obviously, you have the right to muzzle anyone you choose to muzzle,
but it's not as though ymenard invented this "not sporting" idea. When
Scott Sanford from Papyrus came on here and said:

 "if you want to be fast at Riverside you better master cutting the
corner at 6 because there is a lot of time to be made there."

no one accused him of a lack of integrity. Papyrus designed the track
to be driven this way, they believe that the real drivers drove
Riverside that way.

"it is not a bug since it is something we did on purpose.  We had
4 different tapes of races at Riverside and all of them show cars
going off the track lap after lap at certain points on the track so we
decided to model the AI that way."

Ymenard is driving the track the way Papyrus designed it to be driven,
if you believe it was designed wrong then your argument should be with
Papyrus.

In my opinion 4 tires off the track should be a black flag, that is
the way it works in DTR.

Peter Ive

Legends/Riverside

by Peter Ive » Mon, 29 Nov 1999 04:00:00





>> Many folks in NL start at the first right turn into the esses and just
>> drive a straight line right up until turn 6.  They end up turning laps in
>> the 113's and 114's because of it.  I think papy should have at least put
>> some tire curbs along the sides of the asphalt to keep everyone honest.
>> Accuracy of track implementation is an honorable goal, but it's hurting
>> online competition.

>Sound like something that ought to be fixed in a patch to me.

But how would they implement it.  You cannot allow the AI to continually
cut the corner and then make it almost impossible for players not to do
the same.  Everyone would be up in arms if they had done that.  You see
something the AI can do and you're not allowed.  You'd be fuming.

This disagreement has come about because of the way Papy decided the way
Riverside would be run.  If they had implemented things in the way some
of the guys here believe it should have been done then there wouldn't be
a problem.  Arguing over the merits or otherwise of how to take this
section is not going to make a blind bit of difference to most people
unfortunately.  The only way to resolve this issue lies solely in the
hands of Papy in my view.  We are driving this course under their rules
- it's not real life - and if their rules say it's allowed then we have
to abide by them.
--
Peter Ives
(AKA Ivington)


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