rec.autos.simulators

Several esteemed members of this group seem to have a disagreement on
the realism of our Grand National 1970 mod physics.  Well, I'll be glad
to enlighten everyone.

The crux of the matter is that yes...we would have like to make them
more realistic based on modification of the exe file for N2003.
However, since while we could go ahead and attempt that (and maybe
garner an invitation to a nice dinner at a courtroom), we don't really
feel like messing around with that, I've got better things to do than
waste my time like that.  I should also mention that I DO win all my
arguments, (and know how to easily sidestep any inane and idiotic
arguments that iRaking's lawyer may drum up since I've heard them
already), I just really don't feel like messing around with that.  Got
better things to do than sit in a courtroom arguing with a fool over a 3
year old racing sim.

At any rate...on to a more productive argument... :)

Let's go to the books, shall we?
Pete Hamilton's 1970 Plymouth Superbird (from Classic Stock Cars by
Motorbooks International)
weight  - 3800 lbs
hp - 650
wheelbase - 115

Craftsman Truck series truck (pick your website)
weight - 3400 lbs
hp - 650
wheelbase - 112

As you can see the old Superbird weighed in at 400 lbs heavier, and had
3" over the Craftsman Truck.  Now that may seem like a lot, but the
difference when calculated out is actually almost 90% in weight, and 97%
  on wheelbase.  The Craftsman truck, while more sculpted in the nose
than the old cars, has a huge cab which offsets the blocky cars of the
1970 season.  They both have 4 speeds, they both have solid rear axles.

Therefore, anyone just jumping in either vehicle for the first time
(with identical tires) would probably notice more in the suspension
handling department than the overall performance of each vehicle.  The
Grand National car would probably have a bit more torque with the hemi,
but the horsepower was the same.

We've looked at the tire model, and tried to make a good approximation
of how the cars handled back then:
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
If you copy these lines out per track, you will find the tires do
approximately the same things as the old bias-ply tires did on the
original cars.  This is based on information passed on to us by people
who drove the cars, and people who own them now.

Therefore, in conclusion...yes, it's inaccurate.  However, the degree of
accuracy is probably close to 90% or better.  I would wager that is
about as close as many mods have gotten to replicating the vehicles they
are supposed to simulate.

Cheers!

Jan Kohl
The Pits
www.thepits.us

Incidentally, have you seen the post headed "Calling Jan Kohl"?

BK

Anyway we now have an innacurate mod for an out-of-sale dead sim which we
cannot modify its physics while there's a struggling sim who's open to mods
that gets nothing done for it.

Great community, thanks to the "We cannot say a word against the work of
people doing this on their free time" attitude of people like you.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Read the thread again, Frank. I certainly DID "hold a point" regarding the
physics. Or did you conveniently gloss over that?

And just a thought on that "struggling sim...." line of thought; I'll bet
London to a brick that in another few years time you'll be deriding THAT sim
and those who continue to support it.
A leopard - even a French-Canadian version - doesn't change its spots.

And in closing, since when, over the past six or so years, have you ever
failed to say a word against "the work of people doing this in their free
time" if it has been your desire to do so?

BK

I did also hold a point but it went over your head as "oh no we cannot say a
word about what the community does".

I don't live in the past.  I have full rights to say a word about the
community and say a word about it, I'm part of it.  There's a sim that's
open to mods yet it's struggling, meanwhile we continue to support an
out-of-sale one whom the past developpers cause major trouble by putting in
major obstacles to these mods.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

And I really don't give a rat's arse whether I'm considered to be supporting
an out-of-sale simulation or not....and I'm sure a lot of other members of
this "community" feel the same way.
We play these games for entertainment, Francois, so whether they are
old-fashioned or otherwise is immaterial.

BK

Fran?ois is right, Bruce, modding for NR2003 is an utter waste of time and
effort as the tyremodel is fubared and the legal ramifications of trying to
fix it don't bear thinking about. On the other hand tracks and series for
rFactor are desperately needed to overcome the slight problems which remain
with the multiplayer and its general appeal.

We're also still waiting for 1937 and 1955 seasons for GPL. <vbg>

Jan.
=---

I agree with Francois too.

It's a lot more than just weight and horsepower that determines a car's
performance and feel.

Earnhardt said the truck mod felt more like his real NASCAR car than the
cars in N2003. So a GN1970 car feels like a current NASCAR car? Seems
impossible too me.

--
David G Fisher

   Ahhh now I can join in.  There is LOTS being done for rFactor.  
Remember, the Pits have been working on the GN thing for probably a
couple of years.   Would you want to just drop a nearly finished
project?  It is regretable that iRacing has taken this stance as it negated
much of their work.  I can only propose that IF the community embraces
iRacing's new product, then the Pits will be well positioned to port GN70
over.
  rFactor has numerous projects in the pipeline...but most got started
After the commercial release.  Fortunately the Pits again are in a unique
position to benefit us users.  Their TPTCC mod for Nr2k3 is the starting
point of the NAGT mod being produced with RSR for rFactor was already being
worked on before rF hit the Net.  We are not getting a mod for a DEAD
sim when the new one is begging for content.  We are getting the GN70 in
addition to the NAGT.    
  The interest in rF will decline until one of the bigger projects is
released,  then, baring a similar product from iR or WR it should see
renewed spark.  The TPTCC online league is currently running a non-points
testing season and we are seeing 20+ drivers every Friday night.  
  We are even having to change the server due to the increased demand.  
Remember too there is a small civil war between the users that stayed with
GTR vs those that left GTR the moment rF was released.  It is not
accrimonious, but it has diluted the community's resources.  (Wait til
GTR2 gets released, then we'll really see some muddy waters)
dh
  regarding Frank vs Francois.  It reminds me of David Hobbs F1 announcing.
He NEVER referred to Alain Prost as anything but Alan.  Something about the
Francophile names  has put a serious bug under many of the Queen's Empire
eh?  My Mom named me David,  my Dad called me...'hey you.'  And I go by
dave.(now my wife...she uses slightly more colorful names)
dh

It's not a matter of living in the past, but simply a matter of continuing
to receive enjoyment from what was an enjoyable product in the first place.

BK

And I go beyond that and think about the community as a motor to this
entertainment business.  This whole thread went way over your head.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Then again I was never the best with writing, I'm a "brasse-marde" (errr...
how can I translate that... hmm "shit-brewer" ? LOL) and ***story-teller
in real life.  My original statement is still true, it's useless
unfortunately for the community.  They should have ignored the release, put
the effort for it in RF instead.  Yes it would have taken time, and perhaps
restart it from scratch, but RF is struggling and it's the ONLY sim at the
moment with potential for the community.  If we don't move quickly to RF
than the business of simracing is all but dead.

Any mod released after RFactor which isn't released for that sim, is now
completely useless, even if I can understand the great effort made by those
people and the quality of those mods.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

They obviously lack the vision of the community, how it's important to STOP
DILLUING THE EFFORTS and have some sense of foresight.  Look at the flight
sim community to see exactly where we are heading if we can't just get some
prescience.

There's this meta-point you clearly aren't able to grasp Bruce.  'tis okay.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Sometimes it's shamefull considering all the efforts put on it, but yes.
You have to let your ego at the door.

With RF that still struggles, we will problably do as there is nothing more
in the horizon.  Each day that passes is a day where RF transform itself in
like I would say... yet-another-isi-related-sim-we-spend-6-months-with.

You're talking about real developper releases?  I see nothing in the PC
community for 2006, except iRacing.  And with the ***ups they have done to
the community, it'll take some very hard work from them to take care of us
after all the harm they have done.

Multiplayer in all of simracing is empty.  Developpers do ask for more than
a couple of 20 driver leagues.  From a business POV the PC simracing
community is going into a black hole which many of us are completely
ignoring it or have no sense of foresight.  I'm not even negative here, it's
just facts.

Does she say "I'm sorry Dave, but I'm afraid I can't do that"  ;-D

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

daysie....dayyysie.....