rec.autos.simulators

by **John Wallac** » Wed, 30 Mar 2005 00:19:35

> What rubbish!
> Wronged in whose eyes?

>>.....one incident does not change any entire country into terrorists. They
> are still the wronged.

Wronged in that millions of innocents have died from cancers and we
denied them any treatment. Wronged in that we used depleted uranium
which caused those cancers. Wronged in that we cleaned up Kuwait, but
denied any such help or advice to Iraq, who had no experience of such
material, and could do nothing.

This is only one example - there are thousands of others. Around Basra
it is estimated that 40-48% of the population will develop cancers in
the coming years - that's HALF of an entire region.

Saddam was a tyrant, but what we have done to his people makes me
ashamed to be human, never mind ashamed to be British. How anyone could
justify that is beyond me.

</rubbish>

by **Mitch_** » Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:08:30

This is the kind of rubbish you could have talked about a YEAR ago and you
might have been able to keep a straight face. Today what you say is nothing
but conspiratorial nonsense without ANY basis in fact or reality.

You can somehow try to justify your point of view by comparing the
POSSIBILITY of cancer vs the reality of a brutal ***ing dictator is
actually about the saddest version of a brainwashed nut Ive ever heard or
seen.

Time to open your eyes to the reality of freedom in Iraq despite your
OBVIOUS liberal spin of how bad things are.

We wont even talk about how quickly freedom is breaking out ALL OVER the
Middle East including Palestine.

Yea, GW was wrong..... NOT!

SAD!

Mitch

> Wronged in that millions of innocents have died from cancers and we denied
> them any treatment. Wronged in that we used depleted uranium which caused
> those cancers. Wronged in that we cleaned up Kuwait, but denied any such
> help or advice to Iraq, who had no experience of such material, and could
> do nothing.

> This is only one example - there are thousands of others. Around Basra it
> is estimated that 40-48% of the population will develop cancers in the
> coming years - that's HALF of an entire region.

> Saddam was a tyrant, but what we have done to his people makes me ashamed
> to be human, never mind ashamed to be British. How anyone could justify
> that is beyond me.

> </rubbish>

by **alex martin** » Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:42:59

Well enough now.

To begin with there are NO WMD in Iraq, so your justification for war was a
lie.

Secondly, since when does America get to decide what democracy is or is not?

Thirdly, if you're so convinced of free Iraq, I suggest a trip to Baghdad
for details.

Fourth, the fact that depleted uranium KILLS is just that - a fact - and the
fact that you would somehow decide that that FACT is a liberal agenda is
about as bizarre as saying that evolution is a theory (Kansas, maybe?).

More than that, the idea that the US - who armed, encouraged and paid for
Saddam's war with Iran in which countless millions were gassed and killed,
are suddenly the bringers of democracy to Iraq is laughable. Moreover, the
idea that the US - who imposed the Shah on Iran - who was known for his
little foibles like democracy and burning woman to death in his private
quarters - is now "concerned" with democracy in the middle east is even more
bizarre. And let's not forget who armed, trained and paid for Bin Laden and
his mujahadeen. And let's not forget who has paid Israel 4 billion dollars a
year to continue its racist policies against the Palestinians. And let's not
forget, while we're at it, the countless other democracy bringing adventures
of the US in Vietnam, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Iran, Iraq, etc etc - and
let's not forget, while we're at it, exactly the type of TYRANTS the US
supports to this day in Uzbekistan, Pakistan and all points East. And while
we're wondering - spare a thought for the people of Grozny - and the people
of Chechnya - who have been viciously cleansed from the face of the earth
before you pass judegment on why and how they exact their revenge on your
buddies, the Russians. There are consequences in this world for all actions;
and while you're considering all of this, do spare a thought for Nelson
Mandela, who Cheney called a terrorist. And do, while you're at it, spare a
thought for the liberal media's secret agenda of showing Rummie-Dum-Dum
shaking hands with the democratic Saddam in the early 80s - at the time when
he was at his most brutal, and conducting well-known gas-warfare against the
Iranians.

No-one asks you to be right or wrong mate; but really, do you have to brag
about your shocking devestation of the dispossessed all in the name of
extreme right wing ***lust?

> This is the kind of rubbish you could have talked about a YEAR ago and you
> might have been able to keep a straight face. Today what you say is
> nothing but conspiratorial nonsense without ANY basis in fact or reality.

> You can somehow try to justify your point of view by comparing the
> POSSIBILITY of cancer vs the reality of a brutal ***ing dictator is
> actually about the saddest version of a brainwashed nut Ive ever heard or
> seen.

> Time to open your eyes to the reality of freedom in Iraq despite your
> OBVIOUS liberal spin of how bad things are.

> We wont even talk about how quickly freedom is breaking out ALL OVER the
> Middle East including Palestine.

> Yea, GW was wrong..... NOT!

> SAD!

> Mitch

>> Wronged in that millions of innocents have died from cancers and we
>> denied them any treatment. Wronged in that we used depleted uranium which
>> caused those cancers. Wronged in that we cleaned up Kuwait, but denied
>> any such help or advice to Iraq, who had no experience of such material,
>> and could do nothing.

>> This is only one example - there are thousands of others. Around Basra it
>> is estimated that 40-48% of the population will develop cancers in the
>> coming years - that's HALF of an entire region.

>> Saddam was a tyrant, but what we have done to his people makes me ashamed
>> to be human, never mind ashamed to be British. How anyone could justify
>> that is beyond me.

>> </rubbish>

by **alex martin** » Wed, 30 Mar 2005 05:46:03

No Steve, but an understanding of how and why Al Qaeda came about is
probably a good start to understanding how to rid the world of this scourge.
And, btw, bombing Baghdad doesn't quite cut the mustard. And neither does
bombing Iran for that matter. Or Syria. Is it really possible, Steve, that
the Americans are the only people that can be right? Not sure about you, but
last time I checked the US foreign policy is littered with mistakes that
have cost millions of innocent lives.

> Exactly, Bruce. Are we supposed to weep for Al Qaida, too?

>> What rubbish!
>> Wronged in whose eyes?

>> > .....one incident does not change any entire country into terrorists.
> They
>> are still the wronged.

by **Mitch_** » Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:02:47

Last I checked American foreign Policy is littered with FREE people the
World over. More people with a higher degree of FREEDOM than at any time
EVER in the history of mankind, and at the American taxpayers and *** and
expense I might add.

What is your countries contribution to World Peace and Freedom?

Is American foreign Policy always right? I sure wouldnt say that but the
good FAR outweighs the bad which your liberal biased hatred blocks entirely
from your skewed perspective.

Mitch

by **Byron Forbe** » Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:08:23

I was watching a doco on Vietnam the other day with reguard to agent
orange - 500,000 deformed children so far and counting. The vegetation is
riddled with agent orange - in all the vegetation/soil - parents pass on a
wonderful legacy to their children. There was some footage of a child, about
2 years old, with about an 18inch diameter head - it was literally pinned to
it's cot by it's own head - it's own body a mere apendage. Probably the most
horrendous thing I've ever witnessed. Many without limbs and too many horror
spectacles to beleive. It makes you wonder if you could just as easily been
born into their life as you were into your own or your chilren were into
theirs.

Possiblity? Fabrication? What was the speil for the alleged safety of
agent orange back then.

Question is - what's worse? Deliberate terrorism that has some
purpose and at least contains some deliberateness.
Or the pathetic
irresponsibility of a bunch of ignorant fools who use weapons provided by
those who pay the highest bribe - it's all about the money.

Wonder why those twin (commercial) towers were targetted? To the pitiful
present day, dago west, money is god - twin towers symbolise god - goodbye
statues of western god! I get the feeling little lesson has been learnt
however but I'm sure there's plenty of refresher courses on the way. Still
though, these refresher courses will continue to be no match for the
dedicated, career idiot.

by **alex martin** » Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:12:50

liberal biased hatred? last time I checked, fella, my liberal biased hatred
didn't amount to millions of rotting corpses in umarked grave which is what
your loving right-wing ideology has brought the world in Afghanistan, El
Salvador, Nicaragua, Cuba, Bolivia, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, and on
and on and on - and, last time I checked, there isn't one example of US
foreign policy - and I mean not ONE - since the end of WW2 and the demise of
the liberal agenda in the US - that has turned out in any way positive to
the people of the lands that have been touched by the wondrous hands of your
loving ideology. Problem is, buddy, the US doesn't give a ***about foreign
lands until it is in its interest to care; and then, every time, it will
back the tyrants against the people. That's US foreign policy. And defending
it by somehow shouting - but we's better than Saddam is already a losing
argument. And really, for the good of the good people who still call
themselves American, I hope it's a lesson you take on board - because
nothing is forever. Not even the goodwill of a world still grateful for WW2.

> Last I checked American foreign Policy is littered with FREE people the
> World over. More people with a higher degree of FREEDOM than at any time
> EVER in the history of mankind, and at the American taxpayers and ***
> and expense I might add.

> What is your countries contribution to World Peace and Freedom?

> Is American foreign Policy always right? I sure wouldnt say that but the
> good FAR outweighs the bad which your liberal biased hatred blocks
> entirely from your skewed perspective.

> Mitch

>> last time I checked the US foreign policy is littered with mistakes that
>> have cost millions of innocent lives.

by **alex martin** » Wed, 30 Mar 2005 06:16:29

Oh and my country's contribution to freedom is contained to its own
boundaries; unlike you - and the lunatics who run the WHite House - we
actually believe in territorial integrity - for ourselves, our neighbours
and countries twenty thousand miles away. And last time I checked, my
country didn't support Bin Laden, Saddam, Egypt, Pakistan and every other
tin-pot dictator we can find. Try some humility fella; the argument that you
killing is better than Saddam's is not precisely a winning one.

> liberal biased hatred? last time I checked, fella, my liberal biased
> hatred didn't amount to millions of rotting corpses in umarked grave which
> is what your loving right-wing ideology has brought the world in
> Afghanistan, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Cuba, Bolivia, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon,
> Pakistan, and on and on and on - and, last time I checked, there isn't one
> example of US foreign policy - and I mean not ONE - since the end of WW2
> and the demise of the liberal agenda in the US - that has turned out in
> any way positive to the people of the lands that have been touched by the
> wondrous hands of your loving ideology. Problem is, buddy, the US doesn't
> give a ***about foreign lands until it is in its interest to care; and
> then, every time, it will back the tyrants against the people. That's US
> foreign policy. And defending it by somehow shouting - but we's better
> than Saddam is already a losing argument. And really, for the good of the
> good people who still call themselves American, I hope it's a lesson you
> take on board - because nothing is forever. Not even the goodwill of a
> world still grateful for WW2.

>> Last I checked American foreign Policy is littered with FREE people the
>> World over. More people with a higher degree of FREEDOM than at any time
>> EVER in the history of mankind, and at the American taxpayers and ***
>> and expense I might add.

>> What is your countries contribution to World Peace and Freedom?

>> Is American foreign Policy always right? I sure wouldnt say that but the
>> good FAR outweighs the bad which your liberal biased hatred blocks
>> entirely from your skewed perspective.

>> Mitch

>>> last time I checked the US foreign policy is littered with mistakes that
>>> have cost millions of innocent lives.

by **Randy Magrude** » Wed, 30 Mar 2005 12:15:56

History didn't begin when you woke up this morning. Why don't you
actually go back and read the transcript of Bush's 2002 State of the
Union speech. You'll find a LOT more there than WMD. What you're
saying is only evidence of the fact that the more often and the more
stridently you tell a lie, the more people believe it. FOrtunately, we
have RECORDS of what was said to us....at least for those of us with
the honesty to look at them.

No, actually I suggest YOU go and stand in a square near where 7
million people voted for the first time and start shouting your views.
My guess is you don't get out of the square in one piece. It's easy to
deny freedom to others. You just say that we "don't have the right to
give them democracy". It's another way of saying 'we got ours, but you
can't have yours, because it might make someone I hate look good'.

Dude, you have YET to supply any kind of evidence for this depleted
uranium claim.

Ah, so you live on the planet where no matter what, all the people you
associate with have to be of high character. The realities of the
planet are not so black 'n white. I *wish* we lived on Planet utopia
and we never had to actually associate with anyone who is not a saint.

Blah blah blah. Even if I accept all this drivel, and even if I accept
that the US is all entirely to blame, does that exempt us from making
it right later? Are we to trust the french to make it right?!

Yeah, those mean Israelis. Why don't they just take their suicide
bombers lying down like good little Jews. Seig Heil, my friend? (If
you didn't notice, the sarcasm is being laid down thickly).

I'm sure you wish Clinton were back in office, at least he did his
bombing from 40,000 feet, damn the consequences.

Randy

by **alex martin** » Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:19:31

So, in America, it is your claim that you believe that,
(a) you didn't go to war over WMD
(b) Congress didn't give your Beloved Leader carte blanche to *** over
100,000 Iraqis because of WMD
(c) "Bringing Freedom to Nation (x)" is now a legitimate cause for the
violation/invasion/occupation of a sovereign nation according to US Law
(d) What we have in Iraq is democracy
(e) Depleted uranium doesn't kill despite the plethora of evidence from Iraq
War 1
(f) The fact that you have dealt with - and continue to deal with - tyrants
the world over should in no way mean that you deal with tyrants the world
over - now or ever
(g) that criticism of Israeli's policy - universally rejected by every
nation on earth but for the US - means that the critic is a nazi
(h) that it is better to lose 1500 US soldiers - and have 10,000 injured -
than bombing from 40,000 feet.
(i) that WMD was not the reason for the British and the others of your
coalition joining up to your adventure
(j) that you never trained Bin Laden
(k) that you never trained the mujahadeen in Afghanistan
(l) that you never paid for tyrants like Mabuto and the Shah of Iran
(m) that you are not paying for tyrants in Uzbekistan, Pakistan, etc etc ...

Dude, really - give it up. It's sad having to read this; not even Powell,
when he didn't give evidence at the UN about WMD, believed , know what I
mean? You're, like, dude, the last person on earth that still believes ...
which is convenient, since the, uhm, "Seig Heil" that the world is listening
to is from people like you, jackbooted and marching to the tune which we
have all heard before, too many times.

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Wed, 30 Mar 2005 19:51:04

There was none.
Different society, different values, different everything.
Not until AFTER, well after, the end of the Vietnam War did any questions
about Agent Orange arise and you could still buy the basic constituents over
the counter well into the 1970's. My father used to poison blackberries and
lantana with 2-4-D and 2-4-5-T....the core of Agent Orange and determined to
be carcinogens in the late 70's.

But so what? Every generation looks back with the wisdom of hindsight. We
(Baby-boomer generation) did it and my parents did it and so did theirs.
My kids will do exactly the same because each generation thinks it has the
answers to life, the universe and everything.

They don't.

Bruce.

agent orange back then.

by **Randy Magrude** » Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:26:52

Sorry dude, as of yesterday, I'm done with this useless discussion.
I'm staying on sims from today on. If you want to keep believing the
tripe that you do, go right ahead, it's always amusing to watch 'useful
idiots' work themselves into a lather for the 'cause'.

Randy

> So, in America, it is your claim that you believe that,
> (a) you didn't go to war over WMD
> (b) Congress didn't give your Beloved Leader carte blanche to ***
> over 100,000 Iraqis because of WMD
> (c) "Bringing Freedom to Nation (x)" is now a legitimate cause for
> the violation/invasion/occupation of a sovereign nation according to
> US Law (d) What we have in Iraq is democracy
> (e) Depleted uranium doesn't kill despite the plethora of evidence
> from Iraq War 1
> (f) The fact that you have dealt with - and continue to deal with -
> tyrants the world over should in no way mean that you deal with
> tyrants the world over - now or ever
> (g) that criticism of Israeli's policy - universally rejected by
> every nation on earth but for the US - means that the critic is a nazi
> (h) that it is better to lose 1500 US soldiers - and have 10,000
> injured - than bombing from 40,000 feet.
> (i) that WMD was not the reason for the British and the others of
> your coalition joining up to your adventure
> (j) that you never trained Bin Laden
> (k) that you never trained the mujahadeen in Afghanistan
> (l) that you never paid for tyrants like Mabuto and the Shah of Iran
> (m) that you are not paying for tyrants in Uzbekistan, Pakistan, etc
> etc ...

> Dude, really - give it up. It's sad having to read this; not even
> Powell, when he didn't give evidence at the UN about WMD, believed ,
> know what I mean? You're, like, dude, the last person on earth that
> still believes ... which is convenient, since the, uhm, "Seig Heil"
> that the world is listening to is from people like you, jackbooted
> and marching to the tune which we have all heard before, too many
> times.

> >> To begin with there are NO WMD in Iraq, so your justification for
> war >> was a lie.

> > History didn't begin when you woke up this morning. Why don't you
> > actually go back and read the transcript of Bush's 2002 State of the
> > Union speech. You'll find a LOT more there than WMD. What you're
> > saying is only evidence of the fact that the more often and the more
> > stridently you tell a lie, the more people believe it.
> > FOrtunately, we have RECORDS of what was said to us....at least for
> > those of us with the honesty to look at them.

> >> Thirdly, if you're so convinced of free Iraq, I suggest a trip to
> >> Baghdad for details.

> > No, actually I suggest YOU go and stand in a square near where 7
> > million people voted for the first time and start shouting your
> > views. My guess is you don't get out of the square in one piece.
> > It's easy to deny freedom to others. You just say that we "don't
> > have the right to give them democracy". It's another way of saying
> > 'we got ours, but you can't have yours, because it might make
> > someone I hate look good'.

> >> Fourth, the fact that depleted uranium KILLS is just that - a fact
> - >> and the fact that you would somehow decide that that FACT is a
> >> liberal agenda is about as bizarre as saying that evolution is a
> >> theory (Kansas, maybe?).

> > Dude, you have YET to supply any kind of evidence for this depleted
> > uranium claim.

> >> More than that, the idea that the US - who armed, encouraged and
> paid >> for Saddam's war with Iran in which countless millions were
> gassed >> and killed, are suddenly the bringers of democracy to Iraq
> is >> laughable.

> > Ah, so you live on the planet where no matter what, all the people
> > you associate with have to be of high character. The realities of
> > the planet are not so black 'n white. I wish we lived on Planet
> > utopia and we never had to actually associate with anyone who is
> > not a saint.

> >> And let's not
> >> forget who armed, trained and paid for Bin Laden and his
> mujahadeen.

> > Blah blah blah. Even if I accept all this drivel, and even if I
> > accept that the US is all entirely to blame, does that exempt us
> > from making it right later? Are we to trust the french to make it
> > right?!

> >> And let's not forget who has paid Israel 4 billion dollars a year
> to >> continue its racist policies against the Palestinians.

> > Yeah, those mean Israelis. Why don't they just take their suicide
> > bombers lying down like good little Jews. Seig Heil, my friend?
> > (If you didn't notice, the sarcasm is being laid down thickly).

> > I'm sure you wish Clinton were back in office, at least he did his
> > bombing from 40,000 feet, damn the consequences.

> > Randy

by **alex martin** » Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:47:20

Rather a useful idiot than a ***ous one mate.

> Sorry dude, as of yesterday, I'm done with this useless discussion.
> I'm staying on sims from today on. If you want to keep believing the
> tripe that you do, go right ahead, it's always amusing to watch 'useful
> idiots' work themselves into a lather for the 'cause'.

> Randy

>> So, in America, it is your claim that you believe that,
>> (a) you didn't go to war over WMD
>> (b) Congress didn't give your Beloved Leader carte blanche to ***
>> over 100,000 Iraqis because of WMD
>> (c) "Bringing Freedom to Nation (x)" is now a legitimate cause for
>> the violation/invasion/occupation of a sovereign nation according to
>> US Law (d) What we have in Iraq is democracy
>> (e) Depleted uranium doesn't kill despite the plethora of evidence
>> from Iraq War 1
>> (f) The fact that you have dealt with - and continue to deal with -
>> tyrants the world over should in no way mean that you deal with
>> tyrants the world over - now or ever
>> (g) that criticism of Israeli's policy - universally rejected by
>> every nation on earth but for the US - means that the critic is a nazi
>> (h) that it is better to lose 1500 US soldiers - and have 10,000
>> injured - than bombing from 40,000 feet.
>> (i) that WMD was not the reason for the British and the others of
>> your coalition joining up to your adventure
>> (j) that you never trained Bin Laden
>> (k) that you never trained the mujahadeen in Afghanistan
>> (l) that you never paid for tyrants like Mabuto and the Shah of Iran
>> (m) that you are not paying for tyrants in Uzbekistan, Pakistan, etc
>> etc ...

>> Dude, really - give it up. It's sad having to read this; not even
>> Powell, when he didn't give evidence at the UN about WMD, believed ,
>> know what I mean? You're, like, dude, the last person on earth that
>> still believes ... which is convenient, since the, uhm, "Seig Heil"
>> that the world is listening to is from people like you, jackbooted
>> and marching to the tune which we have all heard before, too many
>> times.

>> >> To begin with there are NO WMD in Iraq, so your justification for
>> war >> was a lie.

>> > History didn't begin when you woke up this morning. Why don't you
>> > actually go back and read the transcript of Bush's 2002 State of the
>> > Union speech. You'll find a LOT more there than WMD. What you're
>> > saying is only evidence of the fact that the more often and the more
>> > stridently you tell a lie, the more people believe it.
>> > FOrtunately, we have RECORDS of what was said to us....at least for
>> > those of us with the honesty to look at them.

>> >> Thirdly, if you're so convinced of free Iraq, I suggest a trip to
>> >> Baghdad for details.

>> > No, actually I suggest YOU go and stand in a square near where 7
>> > million people voted for the first time and start shouting your
>> > views. My guess is you don't get out of the square in one piece.
>> > It's easy to deny freedom to others. You just say that we "don't
>> > have the right to give them democracy". It's another way of saying
>> > 'we got ours, but you can't have yours, because it might make
>> > someone I hate look good'.

>> >> Fourth, the fact that depleted uranium KILLS is just that - a fact
>> - >> and the fact that you would somehow decide that that FACT is a
>> >> liberal agenda is about as bizarre as saying that evolution is a
>> >> theory (Kansas, maybe?).

>> > Dude, you have YET to supply any kind of evidence for this depleted
>> > uranium claim.

>> >> More than that, the idea that the US - who armed, encouraged and
>> paid >> for Saddam's war with Iran in which countless millions were
>> gassed >> and killed, are suddenly the bringers of democracy to Iraq
>> is >> laughable.

>> > Ah, so you live on the planet where no matter what, all the people
>> > you associate with have to be of high character. The realities of
>> > the planet are not so black 'n white. I wish we lived on Planet
>> > utopia and we never had to actually associate with anyone who is
>> > not a saint.

>> >> And let's not
>> >> forget who armed, trained and paid for Bin Laden and his
>> mujahadeen.

>> > Blah blah blah. Even if I accept all this drivel, and even if I
>> > accept that the US is all entirely to blame, does that exempt us
>> > from making it right later? Are we to trust the french to make it
>> > right?!

>> >> And let's not forget who has paid Israel 4 billion dollars a year
>> to >> continue its racist policies against the Palestinians.

>> > Yeah, those mean Israelis. Why don't they just take their suicide
>> > bombers lying down like good little Jews. Seig Heil, my friend?
>> > (If you didn't notice, the sarcasm is being laid down thickly).

>> > I'm sure you wish Clinton were back in office, at least he did his
>> > bombing from 40,000 feet, damn the consequences.

>> > Randy

by **Steve Smit** » Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:01:44

The depleted-uranium claim is specious, AFAIK. We have only one weap that
uses it: the 30mm Gatling gun on the nose of the A-10 "Warthog" tank buster.
Note that altho we used A-10s in Gulf War I (against the Repub Guard's
T-72s), we never deployed them during Op Iraq Freedom. Moreover, DU isn't
radioactive, so it's unlikely to cause cancer.

by **rmagrude** » Thu, 31 Mar 2005 00:40:42

So, how you liking the sims these days?

(Sorry, but I'm AGGRESSIVELY changing the subject back to, ya know,
REC.AUTOS.SIMULATORS).

rec.autos.simulators

An example for you all to look up to

An example for you all to look up to

An example for you all to look up to

An example for you all to look up to

An example for you all to look up to

An example for you all to look up to

An example for you all to look up to

An example for you all to look up to

An example for you all to look up to

An example for you all to look up to

An example for you all to look up to

An example for you all to look up to

An example for you all to look up to

An example for you all to look up to

An example for you all to look up to

An example for you all to look up to