rec.autos.simulators

by **Kai Fulle** » Thu, 20 Jul 2000 04:00:00

agreed

all you said is true. I',m going to take your word for it, and assume that
DN is never going to come out and simply say what you just said.

I appreciate your comments, it shows that you actually read my post, and
didn't just assume I was saying. "I have better morals that DN, and he's
stupid and GP3 will be a ***version of GP2... :)"

thanks for being reasonable and not jumping off before the gun.

> Uh, who else has made any free converters? Who else has made any
converters
> for that matter?
> As far as new tracks for GPL go, I only know of one good one that was not
> created by Dave Noonan and that is the GPLEA Snetterton. Brands Hatch ,
> O-Ring, and Imola were all created by Noonan and distributed for free.
> If making converters were so easy to do, someone else would have already
> done their own and released it for free. Dave Noonan obviuosly has some
> expertise and/or time that the rest of us in the sim racing community do
not
> have. What does it matter if it took him 5 minutes or 5 years - if he can
> create something that no one else can, and it is a good product, why not
> charge for it. Also, do not forget that over the years, all Noonan's
> converters have had a free demo that allowed you to convert a couple
tracks
> to see if you would like it.

> The GPL converter I paid for has given me 21 more tracks, however, I would
> have glady paid just for Indianapolis and Riverside. All the other "free"
> stuff out there for GPL does not provide the added longevity of GPL that
the
> track converter does. New carsets, sounds, track graphics, and setups are
> cool, but nothing extends the life of a racing sim more than the challenge
> of a new track.

> Anyway, if you really just want some idea of the amount of time and effort
> that has gone into the production of Dave Noonan's converters, then here
is
> a quote from Alison Hine's excellent
> website(http://www.racesimcentral.net/) regarding the converter:

> "Under development for over a year, and crafted with loving care and
> attention to detail, David's converter is an incredible achievement. I
> worked with David throughout most of the development period, and I have
some
> idea of the sweat and tears that went into this fantastic product. David's
> ingenuity and commitment to quality are monumental."

> Let's end this thread here and get back to enjoying GPL and Dave Noonan's
> tracks(both free and converted).....

> Don Chapman

> > At what point did I say he didn't have the right to do so?At what point
> did
> > I say he had to justify it? I definitely said, that "I'd Just like to
> know"
> > and that "I'd (personally) feel much better" in that I would be more
> > willing to buy a product if I knew how much time he put into it, if only
> to
> > support his work.

> > As for the other part of my statement, I'm basically just saying that If
I
> > were him, I would have a hard time charging the other people who make
> > converters and such that I use for free. It's like if Microsoft used
Apple
> > OS free for some reason, but then charged Apple to use their OS. I'm not
> > saying you can't do it that way, or that he shouldn't but in my opinion,
I
> > wouldn't feel great about it.

> > > What a load of bollocks!!! If YOU created a program, YOU have the
right
> to
> > > charge for it. Some don't, but some do, and it's up to them, the
people
> > who
> > > put in the time and hard work,coding, debugging, tweaking, etc.
> > > They don't have to justify it to every ***wit who wants something for
> > > nothing. Really, we should consider ourselves lucky when we can have
> > things
> > > like new tracks, carsets, graphics, whatever, for free. Or are people
> > going
> > > to start asking why Papy think they can charge for their games?
> > > --
> > > -Ace-
> > > (GPLRank +1.83)

> > > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd
at
> > > least
> > > > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so
many
> > > > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses,
> and
> > > then
> > > > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how
> > much
> > > > time it really takes him.

> > > > I'd just like to know.

by **SKur** » Thu, 20 Jul 2000 04:00:00

every other addon in the sim community?!?!?! wtf have u been?
Craftsman trucks $$$, Combat flight sim addons $$, half life addons $$, quake
addons $$

Alotta games get commenrcial addons, why shouldn't GPL?

Martyn_D

> well every other add-on in the sim community is free, so obviously you and
> him are the only ones that feel that way.

> Bill charges me because he needs to pay his employees as well as support
> himself through this full time job. AMD, must pay researchers, assemblers as
> well as machinery. factory costs. insurance and raw materials. As well as
> maintain the large pay required for good uppity upps these days.

> Ask Linus Torvalds why he decided to make the code for Linux free?

> > If the only payment addon suppliers were to receive, was the company of
> some of
> > the people i see in here.....
> > GPL woulda died long ago...

> > If there is no return on the investment of your effort and time, then why
> > bother? I'd be willing to bet Dave doesn't even get much time to enjoy
> the work
> > he has done. So he doesn't even get that satisfaction.

> > Ask Bill why he charged ya for win98, or Intel/AMD why they charged ya for
> that
> > last cpu
> > or STFU

> > Martyn_D

> > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at
> least
> > > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many
> > > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, and
> then
> > > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how
> much
> > > time it really takes him.

> > > I'd just like to know.

> > > > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I mean
> I
> > > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have them
> but
> > > > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I only
> > > > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else.

> > > > Jason

> > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > > Before you buy.

by **Dave Henri** » Thu, 20 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Don't worry I wasn't comparing DN to DS, I was showing
how DN "MAY" have learned a thing or two from the
DS debacle which was pretty much a bunch of BS.
dh :)

> > OK Kai lets look at another angle. Derek Smart and Battlecruiser 2000.

> Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!! Don't bring the BC2k angle into this NG
> please!!!! ;-D

> > From then on, he had a reputation and frankly, I think there were many
> > smug newsgroup users who were pleased when the original BC2k came out
too
> > soon and tanked very badly. No matter how well BC3k Millenium turns
out,
> > the bad taste of Derek's past will follow it.

> Please never compare David Noonan to Derek Smart.

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...
> -- http://www.WeRace.net
> -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't
realise
> how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

by **John Wallac** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Surely that much is clear? You know the NASCAR & ICR2 tracks, you know
GPL - you are offered the opportunity to add one thing that you know
into another thing that you know. You are even offered some free
samples to try.

What do you call Brands Hatch, Osterreichring etc? Having been
involved in making tracks in the past, believe me there is a LOT of
work goes into it.

Here? In r.a.s.? You jest, shurely? :-)

John

by **John Wallac** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

He made a converter to create the tracks, and he also made several
actual new tracks - where's the difference? If he charged for the
tracks he made would that make things okay?

John

by **Ronald Stoeh** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

> At what point did I say he didn't have the right to do so?At what point did
> I say he had to justify it? I definitely said, that "I'd Just like to know"
> and that "I'd (personally) feel much better" in that I would be more
> willing to buy a product if I knew how much time he put into it, if only to
> support his work.

That's not how it works. If I'm going to slap together a tool that simplifies
modifying AI, track lists, drivers, etc. (hmm, I heard that before) and it
is amazingly helpful to the users, I'll charge you what it is worth to YOU
and not necessarily what it cost to make the tool.

Esp. with the relative small user base we should have paid 50 pounds to pay
for David's time. Of course, nobody would pay that much, so the 15 pounds
are just a little thankyou for his great effort.

l8er
ronny

--
|\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather,
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep.
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car,
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

by **David R. Ericso** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

> Let me say that If Dave Noonan charged for the tracks he's made I'd look at
> them like products, I see conversion as a service. If you made the new great
> bikini, then that's a product, if you made the preexisting bikini's look
> good on 300 pound women, that's a service. (Well maybe.. :) ) So I would
> expect to pay you if I thought your service was warranted for the price.

> Again I'm just more interested if whether I want to feel comfortable with
> buying it, and Dave doesn't want to say anything. I never buy anything
> without knowing what I'm paying for. I didn't buy Nascar 3, because it
> seemed to me they threw together a new car set and better sound and a new
> rasterizer. I'm not paying 40 bucks fir that.

So if that's what you are more interested in, try the demo converter...
that's what it's there for. If you like it, buy the full converter, if not
then don't buy it. It's really very simple.

Oh... and by the way Noonan's converter is a product, not a
service. Using your bikini example... Say I developed a small home-based
tool that could take a preexisting bikini and modify ("convert") it to
look good on obese women. This bikini converter would be my product which
I could sell to anyone. It takes a bikini which the consumer already bought
and converts it to make them look good in it and feel good about themself.
Just like Noonan's track converter takes an existing track from a product
you purchased and converts it to work in another racing title which you also
purchased. It's no different from the millions of products out there that
claim to improve something you already own.

BTW, don't run with the bikini idea... you'll end up homeless in the long
run... ;-)

Dave

by **Kai Fulle** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

that's not how it works? I can't base my purchase of a product on standards
that I choose?

> > At what point did I say he didn't have the right to do so?At what point
did
> > I say he had to justify it? I definitely said, that "I'd Just like to
know"
> > and that "I'd (personally) feel much better" in that I would be more
> > willing to buy a product if I knew how much time he put into it, if only
to
> > support his work.

> That's not how it works. If I'm going to slap together a tool that
simplifies
> modifying AI, track lists, drivers, etc. (hmm, I heard that before) and it
> is amazingly helpful to the users, I'll charge you what it is worth to YOU
> and not necessarily what it cost to make the tool.

> Esp. with the relative small user base we should have paid 50 pounds to
pay
> for David's time. Of course, nobody would pay that much, so the 15 pounds
> are just a little thankyou for his great effort.

> l8er
> ronny

> --
> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather,
> ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep.
> |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car,
> '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

by **Kai Fulle** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

I had assumed that Noonan made a process that converts the track, he
manually converted the tracks and then automated that process so that he
wouldn't have to come to all our houses and manually convert them. Since
this is almost considered a macro of sorts, it's automating his service. If
his program could convert any track that works in N2 to work with N3,
without the programs previous knowledge of the track, this would then be a
product.

> > Let me say that If Dave Noonan charged for the tracks he's made I'd look
at
> > them like products, I see conversion as a service. If you made the new
great
> > bikini, then that's a product, if you made the preexisting bikini's look
> > good on 300 pound women, that's a service. (Well maybe.. :) ) So I
would
> > expect to pay you if I thought your service was warranted for the price.

> > Again I'm just more interested if whether I want to feel comfortable
with
> > buying it, and Dave doesn't want to say anything. I never buy anything
> > without knowing what I'm paying for. I didn't buy Nascar 3, because it
> > seemed to me they threw together a new car set and better sound and a
new
> > rasterizer. I'm not paying 40 bucks fir that.

> So if that's what you are more interested in, try the demo converter...
> that's what it's there for. If you like it, buy the full converter, if
not
> then don't buy it. It's really very simple.

> Oh... and by the way Noonan's converter is a product, not a
> service. Using your bikini example... Say I developed a small home-based
> tool that could take a preexisting bikini and modify ("convert") it to
> look good on obese women. This bikini converter would be my product which
> I could sell to anyone. It takes a bikini which the consumer already
bought
> and converts it to make them look good in it and feel good about themself.
> Just like Noonan's track converter takes an existing track from a product
> you purchased and converts it to work in another racing title which you
also
> purchased. It's no different from the millions of products out there that
> claim to improve something you already own.

> BTW, don't run with the bikini idea... you'll end up homeless in the long
> run... ;-)

> Dave

by **Kai Fulle** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

My second part was just referring to other add-on markers so in reality it
really doesn't concern me.

as for the first part, it's still up to me to decide what I do and don't
want to pay for. For some reason, me saying that turned into some outrageous
thread because others have different standards of buying things.

> >(1) I don't pay for services unless I know how much they're doing for me.
> >I'm not going to pay 100 buck for an hours for in example if I don't have
> >to.

> Surely that much is clear? You know the NASCAR & ICR2 tracks, you know
> GPL - you are offered the opportunity to add one thing that you know
> into another thing that you know. You are even offered some free
> samples to try.

> >(2) I think if I were a person who put many hours into a add-on, I would
> >feel a bit slighted to be charged by him, when he's using my program for
> >free.

> What do you call Brands Hatch, Osterreichring etc? Having been
> involved in making tracks in the past, believe me there is a LOT of
> work goes into it.

> >all just my opinions of course, can't argue with that.

> Here? In r.a.s.? You jest, shurely? :-)

> John

by **Kai Fulle** » Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:00:00

give me a break Skurj, let me rephrase even though you knew what I meant.
COMMUNITY based add-ons.

> every other addon in the sim community?!?!?! wtf have u been?
> Craftsman trucks $$$, Combat flight sim addons $$, half life addons $$,
quake
> addons $$

> Alotta games get commenrcial addons, why shouldn't GPL?

> Martyn_D

> > well every other add-on in the sim community is free, so obviously you
and
> > him are the only ones that feel that way.

> > Bill charges me because he needs to pay his employees as well as support
> > himself through this full time job. AMD, must pay researchers,
assemblers as
> > well as machinery. factory costs. insurance and raw materials. As well
as
> > maintain the large pay required for good uppity upps these days.

> > Ask Linus Torvalds why he decided to make the code for Linux free?

> > > If the only payment addon suppliers were to receive, was the company
of
> > some of
> > > the people i see in here.....
> > > GPL woulda died long ago...

> > > If there is no return on the investment of your effort and time, then
why
> > > bother? I'd be willing to bet Dave doesn't even get much time to
enjoy
> > the work
> > > he has done. So he doesn't even get that satisfaction.

> > > Ask Bill why he charged ya for win98, or Intel/AMD why they charged ya
for
> > that
> > > last cpu
> > > or STFU

> > > Martyn_D

> > > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd
at
> > least
> > > > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so
many
> > > > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses,
and
> > then
> > > > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how
> > much
> > > > time it really takes him.

> > > > I'd just like to know.

> > > > > We are all in this for fun. Why do you sell your converters? I
mean
> > I
> > > > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why? I have
them
> > but
> > > > > I was just curious. Do you have a business lisence? Please I
only
> > > > > want Dave Noonon to respond. No one else.

> > > > > Jason

> > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > > > Before you buy.

by **bph..** » Sat, 22 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Ok Kai, time to get back under your rock.

> My second part was just referring to other add-on markers so in
reality it
> really doesn't concern me.

> as for the first part, it's still up to me to decide what I do and
don't
> want to pay for. For some reason, me saying that turned into some
outrageous
> thread because others have different standards of buying things.

> > >(1) I don't pay for services unless I know how much they're doing
for me.
> > >I'm not going to pay 100 buck for an hours for in example if I
don't have
> > >to.

> > Surely that much is clear? You know the NASCAR & ICR2 tracks, you
know
> > GPL - you are offered the opportunity to add one thing that you know
> > into another thing that you know. You are even offered some free
> > samples to try.

> > >(2) I think if I were a person who put many hours into a add-on, I
would
> > >feel a bit slighted to be charged by him, when he's using my
program for
> > >free.

> > What do you call Brands Hatch, Osterreichring etc? Having been
> > involved in making tracks in the past, believe me there is a LOT of
> > work goes into it.

> > >all just my opinions of course, can't argue with that.

> > Here? In r.a.s.? You jest, shurely? :-)

> > John

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

by **Eldre** » Sat, 22 Jul 2000 04:00:00

>that's not how it works? I can't base my purchase of a product on standards
>that I choose?

>> > At what point did I say he didn't have the right to do so?At what point
>did
>> > I say he had to justify it? I definitely said, that "I'd Just like to
>know"
>> > and that "I'd (personally) feel much better" in that I would be more
>> > willing to buy a product if I knew how much time he put into it, if only
>to
>> > support his work.

>> That's not how it works. If I'm going to slap together a tool that
>simplifies
>> modifying AI, track lists, drivers, etc. (hmm, I heard that before) and it
>> is amazingly helpful to the users, I'll charge you what it is worth to YOU
>> and not necessarily what it cost to make the tool.

I don't think that's quite what he said...
Lemme ask you a question. You obviously know WHAT the converter does. You're
intelligent enough for that. You also know what the price is. Is your
sticking point the fact that there IS a charge(which you don't think it's
worth), or that Dave himself hasn't told you WHY he's charging what he is. I
can understand the first scenario, but not the second. Do you own a car? If
so, did you ask the company WHY they charge what they charge? Not likely. You
look at the choices, and if you like something that fits into your budget, you
buy it. I personally don't think ANY car is worth more than about $5000, but
then again, I can't build my own...<G>
This isn't a flame, but it probably sounds like one. I'm just trying to
understand it more from your point of view...

Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPL hcp. +70.45

Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

rec.autos.simulators

DN why do u sell your converters?

DN why do u sell your converters?

DN why do u sell your converters?

DN why do u sell your converters?

DN why do u sell your converters?

DN why do u sell your converters?

DN why do u sell your converters?

DN why do u sell your converters?

DN why do u sell your converters?

DN why do u sell your converters?

DN why do u sell your converters?

DN why do u sell your converters?

DN why do u sell your converters?

DN why do u sell your converters?