rec.autos.simulators

DN why do u sell your converters?

Kai Fulle

DN why do u sell your converters?

by Kai Fulle » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

I mean for one of the things he does, bad English. Basically all I'm saying
he can do whatever the hell he wants. :) Just that it's a bit unethical to
charge people for your time, when they've given so much to you. I don't
think I've done anything for him, so wouldn't expect that from him.

This also isn't to misconstrued as me saying that I don't respect all that
he's done. I'm just saying what I'm saying. :)


> My guess is that Todd hit it, to make money.  And I have more than
> gotten my money's worth of enjoyment from the converter.  And what the
> heck are you talking about, "the one thing he does"?  There is a free
> demo of the converter and then there is Brands Hatch, O-ring and Imola
> et al.  I think all done by Mr. Noonan and provided free to the gpl
> world.  Hope you and jason will go off in search of another windmill.



> > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd
> at least
> > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many
> > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses,
> and then
> > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how
> much
> > time it really takes him.

> > I'd just like to know.



> > > We are all in this for fun.  Why do you sell your converters?  I
> mean I
> > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why?  I have them
> but
> > > I was just curious.  Do you have a business lisence?  Please I only
> > > want Dave Noonon to respond.  No one else.

> > > Jason

> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > > Before you buy.

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> Before you buy.

Kai Fulle

DN why do u sell your converters?

by Kai Fulle » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

who cares, obviously you don't. Not your place to judge if other should. I
personally don't really care. I'm just curious. I have the right to ask, not
to demand.


> Who cares why he charges for it. All I know is that 15 quid is very little
> to pay for something that has given such a lot of enjoyment.
> Long may he continue to develop stuff for this sim... charging for them or
> not...

> Regards

> Peter Hooper



> > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at
> least
> > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many
> > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, and
> then
> > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how
much
> > time it really takes him.

> > I'd just like to know.



> > > We are all in this for fun.  Why do you sell your converters?  I mean
I
> > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why?  I have them
but
> > > I was just curious.  Do you have a business lisence?  Please I only
> > > want Dave Noonon to respond.  No one else.

> > > Jason

> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > Before you buy.

Kai Fulle

DN why do u sell your converters?

by Kai Fulle » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

I'm not bullying, just curious. There's nothing imm***about charging for
it. But as a software supplier, we can discuss what we think about the
product value for the price.

I can definitely say what I think about his actions if I'd like. But really
I'd just like to know more, before I spend money on something.


> It's a simple concept.  Supply and demand.  Dave supplies the only
converter
> in town.  If you want it, then you buy it.  Last time I checked, no one
was
> holding a gun to anyone's head.  If you prefer to support only those who
> produce their add-ons for free, then by all means do it.  I am not saying
if
> it is right or wrong to charge for the converter.  Noonan has made a
> decision that the time he spent on the converter was worth something to
him,
> and so he would like to earn some money.  He has also released free
add-ons.
> Others have decided that their work is a simple matter of passion for the
> sim, or a fun hobby, and have decided to give it away for free.  Why does
> everyone suddenly want to bully Dave Noonan to force their values onto
him?
> How do we know he uses any software tools other than his own?

> Stephen



> > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at
> least
> > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many
> > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, and
> then
> > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how
much
> > time it really takes him.

> > I'd just like to know.



> > > We are all in this for fun.  Why do you sell your converters?  I mean
I
> > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why?  I have them
but
> > > I was just curious.  Do you have a business lisence?  Please I only
> > > want Dave Noonon to respond.  No one else.

> > > Jason

> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > > Before you buy.

Kai Fulle

DN why do u sell your converters?

by Kai Fulle » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

apparently you with everyone else has missed my point entirely. First read
the message above, where I later state that I didn't state  the one thing
statement correctly.

Once again I'm not saying he hasn't done great things I just feel.

(1) I don't pay for services unless I know how much they're doing for me.
I'm not going to pay 100 buck for an hours for in example if I don't have
to.

(2) I think if I were a person who put many hours into a add-on, I would
feel a bit slighted to be charged by him, when he's using my program for
free.

all just my opinions of course, can't argue with that.





> > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at
> least
> > > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many
> > > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses,
and
> then
> > > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how
> much
> > > time it really takes him.

> > Did you even read this message before you sent it out ?

> > David have put more into the community than most people, I have no idea
> > how long it took him to create the converter, and it don't really matter
> > to me, there's also this thing about being able to do something that few
> > others can do, that has to be worth something as well don't you think,
> > and he don't charge for the *one* thing he does, if you read up on all
> > the stuff he has done over the years you will find that most of his
> > stuff is free, much of what he has done isn't released as a "DN product"
> > at "The Pits", it's just incorporated into the other stuff, like the
> > TPTCC patch or whatever, so saying that he charges for the *one* thing
> > he does is plain wrong

> > Saying that he don't have guts only shows have little you know about
> > him, whether or not he chooses to come to this NG and defend himself,
> > why on earth he should have to in the first place is beyond me, has
> > nothing to do with guts, and I'm glad to see that the majority of those
> > that have chosen to voice their opinion on this whole converter issue
> > seems to understand that

> > I don't know why I even bother to argue over this issue anymore

> > Beers and cheers
> > (uncle) Goy

> I would guess it has something to do with a difficulty in suffering fools
> gladly.

Kai Fulle

DN why do u sell your converters?

by Kai Fulle » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Well Dave, I'm glad someone finally got the light of my posts, I think
people were perceiving what I was saying as a flame directed at Noonan, Not
at all.

I'm not saying the worth of the tracks isn't there, but since he didn't
really make the tracks, I'm looking at what I'm paying him as pay for
service. I'm paying him for making the tracks available, not for making the
tracks. So I was just curious what his reasoning was for charging for it. I
would be completely fine if he doesn't, just not sure why after all this
time he hasn't just come out and said. It took me six months, and I lost a
lot of time with my family or whatever. There's obviously a reason why he
decides to charge for this and not the tracks he makes. I'm more curious on
that end than anything else. I'm not saying has  to, I'd just like to know.

Ok I've taken you up on that, I've begun work on something I call GPaL. I've
taken Sylvester Stalone's original code, and added the additional feature of
converting any GP2 track. :)


Kai Fulle

DN why do u sell your converters?

by Kai Fulle » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

At what point did I say he didn't have the right to do so?At what point did
I say he had to justify it? I definitely said, that "I'd Just like to know"
and that "I'd (personally) feel  much better" in that I would be more
willing to buy a product if I knew how much time he put into it, if only to
support his work.

As for the other part of my statement, I'm basically just saying that If I
were him, I would have a hard time charging the other people who make
converters and such that I use for free. It's like if Microsoft used Apple
OS free for some reason, but then charged Apple to use their OS. I'm not
saying you can't do it that way, or that he shouldn't but in my opinion, I
wouldn't feel great about it.


> What a load of bollocks!!! If YOU created a program, YOU have the right to
> charge for it. Some don't, but some do, and it's up to them, the people
who
> put in the time and hard work,coding, debugging, tweaking, etc.
> They don't have to justify it to every ***wit who wants something for
> nothing. Really, we should consider ourselves lucky when we can have
things
> like new tracks, carsets, graphics, whatever, for free. Or are people
going
> to start asking why Papy think they can charge for their games?
> --
> -Ace-
> (GPLRank +1.83)



> > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at
> least
> > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many
> > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, and
> then
> > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how
much
> > time it really takes him.

> > I'd just like to know.

Kai Fulle

DN why do u sell your converters?

by Kai Fulle » Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:00:00

well every other add-on in the sim community is free, so obviously you and
him are the only ones that feel that way.

Bill charges me because he needs to pay his employees as well as support
himself through this full time job. AMD, must pay researchers, assemblers as
well as machinery. factory costs. insurance and raw materials. As well as
maintain the large pay required for good uppity upps these days.

Ask Linus Torvalds why he decided to make the code for Linux free?


> If the only payment addon suppliers were to receive, was the company of
some of
> the people i see in here.....
> GPL woulda died long ago...

> If there is no return on the investment of your effort and time, then why
> bother?  I'd be willing to bet Dave doesn't even get much time to enjoy
the work
> he has done.  So he doesn't even get that satisfaction.

> Ask Bill why he charged ya for win98, or Intel/AMD why they charged ya for
that
> last cpu
> or STFU

> Martyn_D


> > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at
least
> > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many
> > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses, and
then
> > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how
much
> > time it really takes him.

> > I'd just like to know.



> > > We are all in this for fun.  Why do you sell your converters?  I mean
I
> > > know they are yours and you have the right to but why?  I have them
but
> > > I was just curious.  Do you have a business lisence?  Please I only
> > > want Dave Noonon to respond.  No one else.

> > > Jason

> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > Before you buy.

Dave Henri

DN why do u sell your converters?

by Dave Henri » Thu, 20 Jul 2000 04:00:00

OK Kai lets look at another angle.  Derek Smart and Battlecruiser 2000.
Derek spent a great deal of time on the newsgroups promoting his product.
He also got into many *** debates(flames) over little trivial items that
had little to do with BC2k.
  From then on, he had a reputation and frankly, I think there were many
smug newsgroup users who were pleased when the original BC2k came out too
soon and tanked very badly.   No matter how well BC3k Millenium turns out,
the bad taste of Derek's past will follow it.
  Perhaps Dave/Jan/Geoff saw some of that and chose to NOT actively
participate in the back and forth posts that fill the newsgroups.  I can
only think of 3 posts by
Dave and two of them happened this week.
  But your real concern seems to be the perceived value of Dave's
convertors.  I have used his original one for years.  I was in very dire
straits finanically back then and it took me months to free up $15 to buy
it.  I almost missed out on the TPTCC because of it.(a great series btw)
But I did finally purchase the convertor.  It is worth EVERY cent.
  Now would you beleive I have NOT purchased his latest effort?  why?  Not
because I don't perceive it to be a good value...but I have enough trouble
with GPL now...I certainly don't need to be spreading my feeble efforts out
to dozens of other tracks.  Plus I have raced the American Indy tracks for 3
years now...I'm looking for change.  So I haven't gotten the newest
convertor.  But If I needed it...beleive me, I would.  Based on his previous
work, I can certainly attest that twenty five or so dollars is a bargain.
His products work.
  And if you are still not convinced, then simply build your own product.
Nobody is stopping you.
dave henrie
Dave Henri

DN why do u sell your converters?

by Dave Henri » Thu, 20 Jul 2000 04:00:00

DOH!  somebody hide this post before Andre see's it!

Don Chapma

DN why do u sell your converters?

by Don Chapma » Thu, 20 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Uh, who else has made any free converters? Who else has made any converters
for that matter?
As far as new tracks for GPL go, I only know of one good one that was not
created by Dave Noonan and that is the GPLEA Snetterton. Brands Hatch ,
O-Ring, and Imola were all created by Noonan and distributed for free.
If making converters were so easy to do, someone else would have already
done their own and released it for free. Dave Noonan obviuosly has some
expertise and/or time that the rest of us in the sim racing community do not
have. What does it matter if it took him 5 minutes or 5 years - if he can
create something that no one else can, and it is a good product, why not
charge for it.  Also, do not forget that over the years, all Noonan's
converters have had a free demo that allowed you to convert a couple tracks
to see if you would like it.

The GPL converter I paid for has given me 21 more tracks, however, I would
have glady paid just for Indianapolis and Riverside.  All the other "free"
stuff out there for GPL does not provide the added longevity of GPL that the
track converter does. New carsets, sounds, track graphics, and setups are
cool, but nothing extends the life of a racing sim more than the challenge
of a new track.

Anyway, if you really just want some idea of the amount of time and effort
that has gone into the production of Dave Noonan's converters, then here is
a quote from Alison Hine's excellent
website(http://www.racesimcentral.net/) regarding the converter:

"Under development for over a year, and crafted with loving care and
attention to detail, David's converter is an incredible achievement. I
worked with David throughout most of the development period, and I have some
idea of the sweat and tears that went into this fantastic product. David's
ingenuity and commitment to quality are monumental."

Let's end this thread here and get back to enjoying GPL and Dave Noonan's
tracks(both free and converted).....

Don Chapman


> At what point did I say he didn't have the right to do so?At what point
did
> I say he had to justify it? I definitely said, that "I'd Just like to
know"
> and that "I'd (personally) feel  much better" in that I would be more
> willing to buy a product if I knew how much time he put into it, if only
to
> support his work.

> As for the other part of my statement, I'm basically just saying that If I
> were him, I would have a hard time charging the other people who make
> converters and such that I use for free. It's like if Microsoft used Apple
> OS free for some reason, but then charged Apple to use their OS. I'm not
> saying you can't do it that way, or that he shouldn't but in my opinion, I
> wouldn't feel great about it.



> > What a load of bollocks!!! If YOU created a program, YOU have the right
to
> > charge for it. Some don't, but some do, and it's up to them, the people
> who
> > put in the time and hard work,coding, debugging, tweaking, etc.
> > They don't have to justify it to every ***wit who wants something for
> > nothing. Really, we should consider ourselves lucky when we can have
> things
> > like new tracks, carsets, graphics, whatever, for free. Or are people
> going
> > to start asking why Papy think they can charge for their games?
> > --
> > -Ace-
> > (GPLRank +1.83)



> > > I've found Dave Never has the guts to answer this question. If he'd at
> > least
> > > answer the question I'd feel much better. To me it's lame that so many
> > > people put time into putting out free programs that obviously uses,
and
> > then
> > > charges them for the one thing he does, for which I have no idea how
> much
> > > time it really takes him.

> > > I'd just like to know.

Uncle Feste

DN why do u sell your converters?

by Uncle Feste » Thu, 20 Jul 2000 04:00:00


> Ask Bill why he charged ya for win98,

Greed.  That's OK, though.  It's all coming home to roost. :-)  BTW, I
am a DN supporter.  Great work & great value!

--
Chuck Kandler

A man is no less a Slave just because he is
allowed to choose a new Master every four years.

Registered Linux User #180746
http://counter.li.org

Jan Verschuere

DN why do u sell your converters?

by Jan Verschuere » Thu, 20 Jul 2000 04:00:00

Didn't like getting attacked on here as well, eh? -Thought so.

Jan.
=---

ymenar

DN why do u sell your converters?

by ymenar » Thu, 20 Jul 2000 04:00:00


Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!! Don't bring the BC2k angle into this NG
please!!!! ;-D

Please never compare David Noonan to Derek Smart.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.WeRace.net
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.


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