rec.autos.simulators

by **Andre Warring** » Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:54:35

Finally I got it.. a short review (my first wheel review so don't be
*** me when I forget something :)

The wheel itself looks great as you can see on this site
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Installation was easy, allthough there was no software in my box
included.. a mistake I guess, but a visit to www.wingmanteam.com and I
got the newest drivers. The only problem I encountered during
installation was finding my Win98 cd among all this mess on my desk.

I used to have the old LWFF (the good one :) and while I loved the
wheel, the pedals were crap. So I bought a pair of CH pedals which
were much better. When I saw the pics of the Momo pedals I allready
knew I would keep using my LWFF pedals, it looked like they were just
as ***as the old ones.
To my surprise, they improved a -lot-. The topside of the pedals are
from metal, and they can tumble/tilt, whatever the word is :)
So no matter at which angle you put your feet on the pedal, you
allways have the perfect position. Resistance is good, even with my
shoes on resistance was good enough.
After a couple of laps on the Ring I noticed I could brake more
precise with my Momo pedals than with my CH pedals.. very good.

The wheel itself has ofcourse the Momo shape, is covered with leather
and has a great grip. Again a surprise, the wheel turns 270 degrees
which is great for those Monaco hairpins. I believe the old LWFF has
180 degrees, and on my wheel it was even less, there was something
wrong on the inner side so I had a range of about 160 degrees..
driving with 270 is really great.

The shifter thingies are from metal and make a nice sturdy click when
you press them. Thank god they went back to the shifter shape of the
old LWFF instead of using the crappy shifter buttons from the LWGP.
6 buttons are on the wheel instead of 4 on the old one. For GPL and
GP3 you don't really need more than 4, but in F1 2001 I really missed
a couple of buttons on my old wheel. Now I can use the extra buttons
for messing with my LCD screen during racing, which is a nice feature.
The buttons are a tad too much on the inside though. No problem for me
because I have big hands, but for the younger drivers among us this
may be a problem.

The force feedback itself is as was expected GREAT! My old LWFF had a
very weak ff. Now a setting of 100% is more than enough, while you can
raise the ff to 150% in the wingman properties.
I first tried GPL. Strong, good ff, but I felt quite a lot of spikes.
This was to be expected, since GPL requires a lot of messing around
with the core.ini ff settings to get that perfect ff. One wrong value
and you have the spikes.. this is going to take me a couple of hours
again to get it right, just as it took me that time to get it perfect
for my old LWFF.

Then I tried GP3. PERFECT!! No spikes at all, very strong and smooth
ff. Allthough the Momo uses gears instead of the cables the old LWFF
used, thanks to the use of ball bearings the steering is supersmooth.

Then I tried F1 2001. Ehh.. oops, no force feedback :)

So all in all the wheel is quite expensive, but for the serious racing
simmer it's more than worth the money. Quality seems very good, unlike
that crappy plastic LWGP wheel. I'm very pleased with it.

If I forgot something, just ask :)

Andre

by **Scot** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 01:29:51

Just come back from a trip around Reading (UK) to find one.. No luck.. Have
to wait..

Scott
www.sjrixon.clara.net

by **BRH** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 02:57:30

The big question, Andre: What's the price?

And does it connect via serial port or USB?

Thanks for the review -- especially the comparison to the LWFF.

Bert

> Finally I got it.. a short review (my first wheel review so don't be
> *** me when I forget something :)

> The wheel itself looks great as you can see on this site
> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> Installation was easy, allthough there was no software in my box
> included.. a mistake I guess, but a visit to www.wingmanteam.com and I
> got the newest drivers. The only problem I encountered during
> installation was finding my Win98 cd among all this mess on my desk.

> I used to have the old LWFF (the good one :) and while I loved the
> wheel, the pedals were crap. So I bought a pair of CH pedals which
> were much better. When I saw the pics of the Momo pedals I allready
> knew I would keep using my LWFF pedals, it looked like they were just
> as ***as the old ones.
> To my surprise, they improved a -lot-. The topside of the pedals are
> from metal, and they can tumble/tilt, whatever the word is :)
> So no matter at which angle you put your feet on the pedal, you
> allways have the perfect position. Resistance is good, even with my
> shoes on resistance was good enough.
> After a couple of laps on the Ring I noticed I could brake more
> precise with my Momo pedals than with my CH pedals.. very good.

> The wheel itself has ofcourse the Momo shape, is covered with leather
> and has a great grip. Again a surprise, the wheel turns 270 degrees
> which is great for those Monaco hairpins. I believe the old LWFF has
> 180 degrees, and on my wheel it was even less, there was something
> wrong on the inner side so I had a range of about 160 degrees..
> driving with 270 is really great.

> The shifter thingies are from metal and make a nice sturdy click when
> you press them. Thank god they went back to the shifter shape of the
> old LWFF instead of using the crappy shifter buttons from the LWGP.
> 6 buttons are on the wheel instead of 4 on the old one. For GPL and
> GP3 you don't really need more than 4, but in F1 2001 I really missed
> a couple of buttons on my old wheel. Now I can use the extra buttons
> for messing with my LCD screen during racing, which is a nice feature.
> The buttons are a tad too much on the inside though. No problem for me
> because I have big hands, but for the younger drivers among us this
> may be a problem.

> The force feedback itself is as was expected GREAT! My old LWFF had a
> very weak ff. Now a setting of 100% is more than enough, while you can
> raise the ff to 150% in the wingman properties.
> I first tried GPL. Strong, good ff, but I felt quite a lot of spikes.
> This was to be expected, since GPL requires a lot of messing around
> with the core.ini ff settings to get that perfect ff. One wrong value
> and you have the spikes.. this is going to take me a couple of hours
> again to get it right, just as it took me that time to get it perfect
> for my old LWFF.

> Then I tried GP3. PERFECT!! No spikes at all, very strong and smooth
> ff. Allthough the Momo uses gears instead of the cables the old LWFF
> used, thanks to the use of ball bearings the steering is supersmooth.

> Then I tried F1 2001. Ehh.. oops, no force feedback :)

> So all in all the wheel is quite expensive, but for the serious racing
> simmer it's more than worth the money. Quality seems very good, unlike
> that crappy plastic LWGP wheel. I'm very pleased with it.

> If I forgot something, just ask :)

> Andre

--
Bert

by **Bart Westr** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 02:57:40

Well done, thanks :)

Price tag according to this site DFL 550, you said 390 earlier. What did you
pay in the end? (Perhaps they over-estimated the rate of the Pound
Sterling??)

Hard to say of course after only a few hours, but do you have any idea how
long it will last. I am thinking of items like:
- pot wear, are the pots easily replaced
- wear in the leather that covers the wheel (The ECCI I once owned had a lot
of wear there, though it was suede rather than leather)
- the gear paddles, will they last like f.e. microswitches

If you know the MSFF, can you compare placement of wheel, buttons and pedals
to that?

Bart

by **Andre Warring** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 03:50:59

>The big question, Andre: What's the price?

Here it was 580 Dutch guilders including VAT, that would be
240 USD
514 German Marks
165 UK Pounds
907,124.88 Zambia Kwacha

Quite expensive, but I rather pay twice the money for a good wheel
than half the money for a plastic one.. this wheel is obviously
targeted for the more serious sim racers.

USB

No problem!

Andre

>Bert

>> Finally I got it.. a short review (my first wheel review so don't be
>> *** me when I forget something :)

>> The wheel itself looks great as you can see on this site
>> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

>> Installation was easy, allthough there was no software in my box
>> included.. a mistake I guess, but a visit to www.wingmanteam.com and I
>> got the newest drivers. The only problem I encountered during
>> installation was finding my Win98 cd among all this mess on my desk.

>> I used to have the old LWFF (the good one :) and while I loved the
>> wheel, the pedals were crap. So I bought a pair of CH pedals which
>> were much better. When I saw the pics of the Momo pedals I allready
>> knew I would keep using my LWFF pedals, it looked like they were just
>> as ***as the old ones.
>> To my surprise, they improved a -lot-. The topside of the pedals are
>> from metal, and they can tumble/tilt, whatever the word is :)
>> So no matter at which angle you put your feet on the pedal, you
>> allways have the perfect position. Resistance is good, even with my
>> shoes on resistance was good enough.
>> After a couple of laps on the Ring I noticed I could brake more
>> precise with my Momo pedals than with my CH pedals.. very good.

>> The wheel itself has ofcourse the Momo shape, is covered with leather
>> and has a great grip. Again a surprise, the wheel turns 270 degrees
>> which is great for those Monaco hairpins. I believe the old LWFF has
>> 180 degrees, and on my wheel it was even less, there was something
>> wrong on the inner side so I had a range of about 160 degrees..
>> driving with 270 is really great.

>> The shifter thingies are from metal and make a nice sturdy click when
>> you press them. Thank god they went back to the shifter shape of the
>> old LWFF instead of using the crappy shifter buttons from the LWGP.
>> 6 buttons are on the wheel instead of 4 on the old one. For GPL and
>> GP3 you don't really need more than 4, but in F1 2001 I really missed
>> a couple of buttons on my old wheel. Now I can use the extra buttons
>> for messing with my LCD screen during racing, which is a nice feature.
>> The buttons are a tad too much on the inside though. No problem for me
>> because I have big hands, but for the younger drivers among us this
>> may be a problem.

>> The force feedback itself is as was expected GREAT! My old LWFF had a
>> very weak ff. Now a setting of 100% is more than enough, while you can
>> raise the ff to 150% in the wingman properties.
>> I first tried GPL. Strong, good ff, but I felt quite a lot of spikes.
>> This was to be expected, since GPL requires a lot of messing around
>> with the core.ini ff settings to get that perfect ff. One wrong value
>> and you have the spikes.. this is going to take me a couple of hours
>> again to get it right, just as it took me that time to get it perfect
>> for my old LWFF.

>> Then I tried GP3. PERFECT!! No spikes at all, very strong and smooth
>> ff. Allthough the Momo uses gears instead of the cables the old LWFF
>> used, thanks to the use of ball bearings the steering is supersmooth.

>> Then I tried F1 2001. Ehh.. oops, no force feedback :)

>> So all in all the wheel is quite expensive, but for the serious racing
>> simmer it's more than worth the money. Quality seems very good, unlike
>> that crappy plastic LWGP wheel. I'm very pleased with it.

>> If I forgot something, just ask :)

>> Andre

by **Andre Warring** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 04:06:09

>> Finally I got it.. a short review (my first wheel review so don't be
>> *** me when I forget something :)

>Well done, thanks :)

>> The wheel itself looks great as you can see on this site
>> http://www.racesimcentral.net/

>Price tag according to this site DFL 550, you said 390 earlier. What did you
>pay in the end? (Perhaps they over-estimated the rate of the Pound
>Sterling??)

I paid DFL 580,-. I saw it for DFL 390,- at an online order company
(go to www.pcbuy.nl and search for the keyword 'momo') but they didn't
have it in storage. And I wanted the wheel NOW :)
Besides, I think the 390,- was excl. VAT, but I only realised that
after I wrote that post.

Hard to say indeed :) First of all, I havey old LWFF for 2 years now,
and it still functions great. It has its small problems (like the 160
degree lock I wrote about) but most of those small problems were the
result of some frustration moments from me :-/
Unlike the LWGP, I expect the same quality from this wheel.. I haven't
opened the case yet, so I can't tell if the inside is solid, but it
feels very solid while driving, and I think that can only be done with
good parts inside, right?

My CH pedals allways have this small amount of jitter (sp?) in the GPL
calibration menu. The new pedals have none, calibration is absolutely
perfect.

The buttons, pedals and especially the metal shifters feel very
sturdy. 5 minutes before I wrote your post I inspected the leather..
not a single stitch was missed, I read the leather was put on the
wheel by hand, Only time will tell how long it will last (I even have
bold spots on my old LWFF at the places where I hold them :D )
but so far it all seems very good quality.

By the way, after I gave it another couple of hours there is one thing
I would like to add: this wheel can turn 270 degrees as I said. While
this drives very comfortable and feels more realistic, it will hurt
your laptimes on some tracks, obviously turning the wheel from full
left to full right will take some time. I think that when I have
online races, I will calibrate up to 180 degrees so I don't have to
turn the wheel that much.
But I just had an offline (duh) GP3 race, and when you're not aiming
for those last 10ths of seconds, driving with 270 degrees definately
feels great :)

Andre

I tried the MSFF in a shop for about 10 minutes. I hated it. It felt
notchy and extremely cheap and fragile. Your question is like asking
how a Trabant drives compared to a Ferrari F50 :D
(ok, that is a bit extreme, but you get my point :)
On the side I mentioned in my review are some good pics of the Momo
wheel and pedals, maybe that will answer your question?

Andre

by **Andi Col** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 05:38:09

I've ordered one on-line from Logitech UK (actually I got an e-mail from
Holland and am getting it from there but I'm sure that's the European
warehouse). 159.00 Inc VAT, Euros177 - probably plus tax.

Andi.

> Just come back from a trip around Reading (UK) to find one.. No luck..
Have
> to wait..

> Scott
> www.sjrixon.clara.net

> > Finally I got it.. a short review (my first wheel review so don't be
> > *** me when I forget something :)

> > The wheel itself looks great as you can see on this site
> > http://www.racesimcentral.net/

> > Installation was easy, allthough there was no software in my box
> > included.. a mistake I guess, but a visit to www.wingmanteam.com and I
> > got the newest drivers. The only problem I encountered during
> > installation was finding my Win98 cd among all this mess on my desk.

> > I used to have the old LWFF (the good one :) and while I loved the
> > wheel, the pedals were crap. So I bought a pair of CH pedals which
> > were much better. When I saw the pics of the Momo pedals I allready
> > knew I would keep using my LWFF pedals, it looked like they were just
> > as ***as the old ones.
> > To my surprise, they improved a -lot-. The topside of the pedals are
> > from metal, and they can tumble/tilt, whatever the word is :)
> > So no matter at which angle you put your feet on the pedal, you
> > allways have the perfect position. Resistance is good, even with my
> > shoes on resistance was good enough.
> > After a couple of laps on the Ring I noticed I could brake more
> > precise with my Momo pedals than with my CH pedals.. very good.

> > The wheel itself has ofcourse the Momo shape, is covered with leather
> > and has a great grip. Again a surprise, the wheel turns 270 degrees
> > which is great for those Monaco hairpins. I believe the old LWFF has
> > 180 degrees, and on my wheel it was even less, there was something
> > wrong on the inner side so I had a range of about 160 degrees..
> > driving with 270 is really great.

> > The shifter thingies are from metal and make a nice sturdy click when
> > you press them. Thank god they went back to the shifter shape of the
> > old LWFF instead of using the crappy shifter buttons from the LWGP.
> > 6 buttons are on the wheel instead of 4 on the old one. For GPL and
> > GP3 you don't really need more than 4, but in F1 2001 I really missed
> > a couple of buttons on my old wheel. Now I can use the extra buttons
> > for messing with my LCD screen during racing, which is a nice feature.
> > The buttons are a tad too much on the inside though. No problem for me
> > because I have big hands, but for the younger drivers among us this
> > may be a problem.

> > The force feedback itself is as was expected GREAT! My old LWFF had a
> > very weak ff. Now a setting of 100% is more than enough, while you can
> > raise the ff to 150% in the wingman properties.
> > I first tried GPL. Strong, good ff, but I felt quite a lot of spikes.
> > This was to be expected, since GPL requires a lot of messing around
> > with the core.ini ff settings to get that perfect ff. One wrong value
> > and you have the spikes.. this is going to take me a couple of hours
> > again to get it right, just as it took me that time to get it perfect
> > for my old LWFF.

> > Then I tried GP3. PERFECT!! No spikes at all, very strong and smooth
> > ff. Allthough the Momo uses gears instead of the cables the old LWFF
> > used, thanks to the use of ball bearings the steering is supersmooth.

> > Then I tried F1 2001. Ehh.. oops, no force feedback :)

> > So all in all the wheel is quite expensive, but for the serious racing
> > simmer it's more than worth the money. Quality seems very good, unlike
> > that crappy plastic LWGP wheel. I'm very pleased with it.

> > If I forgot something, just ask :)

> > Andre

by **Phil Le** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 05:51:34

> By the way, after I gave it another couple of hours there is one thing
> I would like to add: this wheel can turn 270 degrees as I said. While
> this drives very comfortable and feels more realistic, it will hurt
> your laptimes on some tracks, obviously turning the wheel from full
> left to full right will take some time. I think that when I have
> online races, I will calibrate up to 180 degrees so I don't have to
> turn the wheel that much.

Andre

Wouldn't it be easier to change your steering ratio in GPL. That's what I
do with my Act Labs Force RS that is also 270 degree lock to lock.

Cheers

Phil Lee

Legends Central Admin
http://www.legendscentral.com

by **Andre Warring** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:41:12

On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 21:51:34 +0100, "Phil Lee"

>Wouldn't it be easier to change your steering ratio in GPL. That's what I
>do with my Act Labs Force RS that is also 270 degree lock to lock.

>Cheers

>Phil Lee

Uuhhmm yes I think that should work too, I'll check it out, thx :)
But I have this other idea involving the CTFJ tool and changing the
sensitivity curve for the x as. I'll post here if that leads to
anything usefull :)

Andre

by **Bart Westr** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:18:47

> >If you know the MSFF, can you compare placement of wheel, buttons and
pedals
> >to that?

> I tried the MSFF in a shop for about 10 minutes. I hated it. It felt
> notchy and extremely cheap and fragile. Your question is like asking
> how a Trabant drives compared to a Ferrari F50 :D
> (ok, that is a bit extreme, but you get my point :)
> On the side I mentioned in my review are some good pics of the Momo
> wheel and pedals, maybe that will answer your question?

I meant to ask about the dimensions. The dimensions of the MSFF suit me
perfect. I can find all the buttons in one go without looking down, and sit
very comfortably behind the wheel. From the pictures it looks like the MOMO
wheel is a bit more horizontal than the MSFF (the msff leans backward only
some 10 or so degrees).

Btw, the notchiness of the MSFF takes a couple days to lessen. The gear
wheels have to be "rubbed in". Besides that, it's not cheap nor fragile. I
have mine for over a year now, and have yet to see the first spike or crack.
The only repair I did was to replace the plug that connects the pedals to
the wheel. I soldered it myself! The problem was as far as I can see that
the inside cord was shorter than the outside, which broke the copper wire.
<End of side note>

One other question I have is the attachment of the wheel to the desk. My
desk has a small ridge underneath near the edge. Do the clamps go somewhat
away from the edge of the desk?

Thanks
Bart

by **Andre Warring** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:23:53

Err hard to judge, the Momo tilts backwards a tad, maybe 5 to 10
degrees or so. The grip on the wheel itself is superb, the leather
feels great and the shape of the wheel is just very comfortable.
The position of the buttons is a tad too much inwards. I press them
with the top of my thumbs, but people with smaller hands may have
troubles reaching the buttons during racing. Also the two lowest
buttons are the hardest to reach, even I have to move my hands a bit
inwards to reach them. Not a big problem, but the positions on the
older LWFF were a bit better.

The MSFF I tested was a demo model in a Dynabyte store, so I guess it
was used well enough for the gears to rub in. Maybe the wheel felt so
bad because of abuse my customers, maybe it was just a bad version I
tested, but it sure felt bad to me. Glad to hear it that the MSFF is
normally a good wheel and that it works good for you.

No problems there, the clamps are designed to go over edges of desks
:)
I believe Dynabyte is the only shop in Holland who has it allready in
storage atm, I recommend you visit a nearby Dynabyte and test it for
yourself.

Andre

by **Andre Warring** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:51:09

On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 16:54:35 +0200, Andre Warringa

>Finally I got it.. a short review (my first wheel review so don't be
>*** me when I forget something :)

I just tried F1 2001, I uninstalled it before because I had big
deadzone problems with my LWFF which I couldn't fix.
Problems are gone now with the Momo without changing anything in F1
2001.. very weird since my LWFF worked perfect with all other racing
sims..

Andre

by **Jaker Amje** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:49:08

Have you taken it apart yet? If so whats it look look on the inside?

by **Andre Warring** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:21:18

Nope, I haven't yet..

Andre

by **Rider00** » Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:51:40

How many paddles are there ?. Are they the gear up, gear down "click" type
and the two variable paddles ?.

> >Have you taken it apart yet? If so whats it look look on the inside?

> Nope, I haven't yet..

> Andre

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