rec.autos.simulators

by **Pat Dotso** » Thu, 26 Mar 1998 04:00:00

> I think you also want CPR to replace ICR2 for you too, huh Byron? Be honest
> now Byron. The Sims Gods are watching!

That would be great but it's a long way from happening. There is
nothing more
we can do to make it happen - it's up to MS.

The other things like brake fade and engine damage are relatively _very_
minor. They could be lived with, but ineffective steering and brain-
dead AI will completely ruin CARTPR. Tire temps are necessary to be
effectice with any of the setup adjustments. The lack of a tire temp
readout clearly shows the inattention to detail that went into CARTPR.

I did finally manage to get the steering to work fairly well - well
enough
to try racing against the AI. After wasting a couple of hours with the
AI, I gave up on CARTPR altogether and haven't touched it again for a
month or two.

I hope they get it right someday.

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports

by **John Walla** » Thu, 26 Mar 1998 04:00:00

>Dont you think that Microsoft can fix this and is capable of making CPR one
>of the best Sims avail? Well lets give them until after there vacation from
>MTM2 and see what happens!

To be honest no, I honestly don't think MS (or indeed anyone else)
could patch this product to be one of the best sims available.
Technically it is imporbable given the amount of things so obviously
needing attention, and commercially it makes no sense whatsoever. I
suspect you may see these things addressed for "CPR2" should such a
beast ever appear. By then of course GPL will have been around for
some time and N3 and quite possible Papy's new CART sim will be on the
market, and the bar will have been raised to a level that the engine
MS are using for CPR and MTM2 just cannot come close to.

I'd like to see MS do well and produce great sims, and if they can
beat Papyrus, Ubisoft, GC and the like then it's good for all of us.
Frankly speaking it will take a _lot_ more than they have at the
moment, not only from the physics and game engine side but also in
understanding the sport and the needs of the market. Accepting CPR as
a good sim without offering constructive criticism will not help one
iota (although mindlessly bashing their efforts will admittedly
achieve a darn sight less).

The sole item of ***ing that needs attention is that CPR, as a
product, is not up to the standard required to be a top class sim. Now
if it makes money and that is the intention of it then it has been a
succesful product - if the intention is to be the best sim ever then
it most assuredly has not. If it's "raison d'etre" is to be a first
step on the road to that "best sim" position then feedback is
obviously needed.

Agreed, but I would be happy even with steering and braking - that
would allow me to hotlap. Good CCs would allow me to race, and
anything beyond that would simply be improving on what would by that
time be a pretty good product.

Thanks for the comments, and a reasoned outlook on CPR.

Cheers!
John

by **Mikes Design** » Thu, 26 Mar 1998 04:00:00

> % Bullshit. Anyway, it seems MS needs a little bashing. The corn fed
> % whiteboy? Govt of the U.S.A. thinks so too. To get to the Zone one
needs
> % IE4 so that they can waist their time trying to get CPR happening and
so
> % IE4 can take over, and in many cases, stuff up peoples systems.

> I read that MS should make the Zone usuable with other browsers, but the
> release date I heard of this switch was next spring. I think this is in
> reaction to the pressure MS has been getting from the Justice
> Department. I just find it odd that it will take a whole year to undo
> this coupling of IE4 and The Zone. But, by then everyone will have made
> the jump to Win98 which is an OS embedded even deeper into IE4 than the
> Zone.

I have never had and probably never will have IE4 but I use the Zone?

by **<gsand..** » Thu, 26 Mar 1998 04:00:00

>> Less eloquent huh? Well I have never been so insulted in all my life.
: ) I am
>> just a corn fed whiteboy from the USA so please excuse me. All I am
saying is
>> Byron adds nothing to this NG but negative posts and re-hashes the same
points
>> over and over it borders on MS bashing ....What a bore

> Bullshit. Anyway, it seems MS needs a little bashing. The corn fed
>whiteboy? Govt of the U.S.A. thinks so too. To get to the Zone one needs
>IE4 so that they can waist their time trying to get CPR happening and so
>IE4 can take over, and in many cases, stuff up peoples systems.

Well if you knew anything about what you are talking about you would know
that the zone is working on Netscape availabilty to the zone now!

but as usuall you wouldnt have noticed it cause it wasnt in a message about
CPR, MTM2 or Microsoft!

G

- Show quoted text -

by **<gsand..** » Thu, 26 Mar 1998 04:00:00

>> Please Byron, Go out and buy CPR and then try it with some current
setups
>> avail and before the 30 days are up you can get your money back. Then
you
>> can post your experiences that you have had good or bad.

> Buy CPR? Now I know your trying to hurt me George! Btw, there is no
>30 day deal here in Aus :(

>> You know Byron, I can really imagine simulator manufactures coming here
just
>> to see what you, the expert says so they know what to fix. hehehe I bet
>> they all have filtered you out of the newsgroup

> Their loss.

>> Dont you think that Microsoft can fix this and is capable of making CPR
one
>> of the best Sims avail? Well lets give them until after there vacation
from
>> MTM2 and see what happens!

> Obviously they can! The question is will they and when!

>> Wait, before you reply about the above sentence, let me recap for you.
First
>> you *** cause they release it to fast. then you *** cause they dont
>> patch it fast enough. then you *** cause the patch didnt fix all the
>> things that you think they should fix. Now you *** cause they are
taking a
>> break after MTM2 before deciding what to do for CPR.

> Well, seems I and others have been doing a lot of ?"***ing"? As
>your above paragraph points out, so we should be *"complaining"*.

>> I know for a fact that you want CPR cause you told me that the other day
>> when we chatted for about an hour. There was a lot of things in the full
>> version you never experienced since you only tried the Demo. Remember
your
>> comments when I told you about how the car would get real light as you
>> approched Thunder Valley. You were getting very e***d.

> Thunder Valley? Very e***d, hehehehehe? Luckily, I must have
>forgotten this.

>> I think you also want CPR to replace ICR2 for you too, huh Byron? Be
honest
>> now Byron. The Sims Gods are watching!

> Of course I do/did. That's exactly what I'm so pissed off about!

>> One last thing:
>> I hope you have been practicing for our modem race in ICR2.
>> You know Byron, I think i'll give you a break. We can race at your home
>> track in Australia but we will use a full field using Realistic Damage.
and
>> we can use a very strong AI strength and we can both start from the rear
of
>> the pack, and we will then see if you can stay on the lead lap with me!
You
>> just let me know when you are ready ok?

> Gee, thanks George. Your strongest track and one I have never even
>raced on - not even for fun (shame on me). I think I'll forfiet. You
>win! Next! Actually, I would think Vancouver would be very interesting
>since you so generously (though accidently, hehehehe) gave me your then
>world record setup there. I think Australia would be a waist of your
>money unless you'd like to wait till after I run it at IEC, Oct 18 or
>CCCC, Oct 25. LOL. Unfortunately I fear lag is gunna be a shocka,
>especially with a big field. Just us 2 on the track would be fun I
>reckon!

Vancouver is fine too Byron. No problem.

Lets do it!

George

by **<gsand..** » Thu, 26 Mar 1998 04:00:00

>> I think you also want CPR to replace ICR2 for you too, huh Byron? Be
honest
>> now Byron. The Sims Gods are watching!

>That would be great but it's a long way from happening. There is
>nothing more
>we can do to make it happen - it's up to MS.

>> One last thing Byron, You keep mentioning the same fixes for CPR.
Steering,
>> Braking and the AI over and over again, If you had ever really tried it
you
>> would realize that there are other important thinks that need to be fixed
>> also:

>The other things like brake fade and engine damage are relatively _very_
>minor. They could be lived with, but ineffective steering and brain-
>dead AI will completely ruin CARTPR. Tire temps are necessary to be
>effectice with any of the setup adjustments. The lack of a tire temp
>readout clearly shows the inattention to detail that went into CARTPR.

>I did finally manage to get the steering to work fairly well - well
>enough
>to try racing against the AI. After wasting a couple of hours with the
>AI, I gave up on CARTPR altogether and haven't touched it again for a
>month or two.

>I hope they get it right someday.

>--
>Pat Dotson
>IMPACT Motorsports

Well Pat I wouldnt know about the AI cause I dont race them I race Humans.

George

by **Kevi** » Thu, 26 Mar 1998 04:00:00

>Well the effects might not be exact to par but I can trail brake while
>turning, Isnt that what trail braking is??? I guess I am the only one that
>has the touch? You must be very gentle though!

I wasn't talking about slowing down while braking and turning. I'm talking
about the effects the weight transfer has on steering and car balance.
Specifically, the car should turn in better when trail braking. I haven't
seen this effect in CPR compared to other sims like F1RS.

It's not just the brakes that are a problem in this sim. I can care less
when there are several minor problems in a sim, but the sum of the major
problems in CPR lead me to delete it and race exclusively in F1RS. I was
once a fan of CPR, hoping that future patches would improve it. They
haven't delivered, and I doubt that they ever will.

--
Kevin
(Remove the "x-" prefix from my address in order to reply via email)

by **Byron Forbe** » Fri, 27 Mar 1998 04:00:00

> Well if you knew anything about what you are talking about you would know
> that the zone is working on Netscape availabilty to the zone now!

> but as usuall you wouldnt have noticed it cause it wasnt in a message about
> CPR, MTM2 or Microsoft!

I read the other day that MS will be making Netscape compatible with
the Zone in 2 months. But are you trying to say that this has not been a
deliberate ploy by MS. How hopeless are MS either way? They iether can't
program properly or a plain dishonest. Take your pick!

by **Ronald Stoeh** » Fri, 27 Mar 1998 04:00:00

snip

> Well if you knew anything about what you are talking about you would know
> that the zone is working on Netscape availabilty to the zone now!

Yeah, and I'm sure it's one (1) guy working 2 hours per month on it!
"What, you finished it? Go back and start from scratch!"

l8er
ronny

--
|\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather,
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep.
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car,
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

by **Pat Dotso** » Fri, 27 Mar 1998 04:00:00

> >to try racing against the AI. After wasting a couple of hours with the
> >AI, I gave up on CARTPR altogether and haven't touched it again for a
> >month or two.

> Well Pat I wouldnt know about the AI cause I dont race them I race Humans.

> George

Well George, I do too - on NROS. That wouldn't excuse Papyrus if the
AI in N2 was lame, and it doesn't excuse Microsoft either. MS's
blatant attempt to force IE on me is even more lame than their AI.

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports

by Jo » Fri, 27 Mar 1998 04:00:00

>>P.S. He has even started to bash MTM2. (Another MS product) Has it been
>>released out of beta yet? ummmmm NO!! It is not a sim like CPR claimed it would
>>be but believe me the beta has far less problems then CPR has to this day.
>MTM2 looks rather cool, and if it improves on the original (which I
>heartily recommend and enjoyed very much) then I will be more than
>happy. If only CPR's AI had been as talented as those Monster Truckers
>eh!? :-)

And the claim that Byron is bashing MTM2 is PURE bullshit - he wrote a
very positive an accurate preview posted on the web the other day.

Joe

by **Mikes Design** » Fri, 27 Mar 1998 04:00:00

URL? As I would really like to see a " positive & accurate " anything
from Byron regarding an MS product. Really I would :-)

by **Safe-T-Lit** » Fri, 27 Mar 1998 04:00:00

Give me an address please. I read a few post from Mr Negative on this NG bashing
MTM2 and that aint no BS

> >>P.S. He has even started to bash MTM2. (Another MS product) Has it been
> >>released out of beta yet? ummmmm NO!! It is not a sim like CPR claimed it would
> >>be but believe me the beta has far less problems then CPR has to this day.

> >MTM2 looks rather cool, and if it improves on the original (which I
> >heartily recommend and enjoyed very much) then I will be more than
> >happy. If only CPR's AI had been as talented as those Monster Truckers
> >eh!? :-)

> And the claim that Byron is bashing MTM2 is PURE bullshit - he wrote a
> very positive an accurate preview posted on the web the other day.

> Joe

by **Safe-T-Lit** » Fri, 27 Mar 1998 04:00:00

Oh yeah, Joe take a look a few posts down from Mr Negative. No wait I will help you.
Here is one quote from Byron (a.k.a Mr. Negative) about MTM2

Some of you people take this way too seriously. I made one or two
references to MTM2 after it was reveiled CPR had been shafted in favour
of getting MTM2 on the shelves. Big deal. I don't give a hoot about MTM2
- not my cuppa tea.

That aint no BS either

> >>P.S. He has even started to bash MTM2. (Another MS product) Has it been
> >>released out of beta yet? ummmmm NO!! It is not a sim like CPR claimed it would
> >>be but believe me the beta has far less problems then CPR has to this day.

> >MTM2 looks rather cool, and if it improves on the original (which I
> >heartily recommend and enjoyed very much) then I will be more than
> >happy. If only CPR's AI had been as talented as those Monster Truckers
> >eh!? :-)

> And the claim that Byron is bashing MTM2 is PURE bullshit - he wrote a
> very positive an accurate preview posted on the web the other day.

> Joe

by **<gsand..** » Fri, 27 Mar 1998 04:00:00

>>Well if you had seem the Elk replay I was talking about Randy and did the
>>same in CPR I guarentee you will spin like crazy. I suggest you check it
out
>>if you have ICR2!!

>Fine. I know that this happens a lot in ICR2 and I know that in ICR2
>its relatively easy to cut corners for big time savings. Cleveland
>was so bad many leagues had to adopt some special replay rules to
>ensure people weren't mowing the grass too much.

>>I agree that the travel wasnt what I was used to in ICR2,GP2 or other sims
>>burt you really think that CART drivers move there pedal 4 inches.
hehehehe
>>Come on Randy, You of all people should know that there braking is set up
>>with little travel,

>Yes, little travel but HIGH PRESSURE. I've never seen a brake system
>for a PC which accurately simulates the fact that brakes are PRESSURE
>devices, not deflection devices. The ideal brake would be on with
>almost no travel, because you'd press harder and harder rather than
>get more pedal deflection. A real car can have little brake pedal
>deflection because its truly a pressure device. Since we don't have
>that with almost every set of PC pedals out there, it has to be made
>up for with travel, and the fact of the matter is that CPR doesn't
>have enough travel, nor does there appear to be any difference in
>travel-to-lockup at high speeds vs. low speeds. This isn't really a
>debatable issue. If you want realistic travel for CPR, you're going
>to have to tell me how I can come by pressure-sensitive brakes that
>make that deflection worthwhile and realistic.

Hmmm, Maybe we all need to spend the big bucks and get the CDS5000
Wheel/Pedal system??? Maybe someday, huh? I have a feeling my wife would
take that CDS5000 and hit me upside the head with it :)

I have an Pi Analysis that I am E-Mailing you that shows between 50 % and 70
% braking depending on the location and speed. Maybe not as much diff as
Reality?? I dont know. I have never seen an analysis of a Indycar, but I am
assuming you have, or know what it should be, so let me know the diff
between mine.

The PI Analysis I am sending you also shows Trail Braking into Turn 2, and
before the corkscrew. I think the lap that I am talking about is listed as
1:09.76 at Laguna. Didnt run to many but if you need more proof I will run
some more. Oh BTW, I made sure in that lap to put a tire off in Turn 4 just
like the CART guys do (as you have stated) also Randy I would have been
right behind you last year if you were in Turn 4 grandstands as I was
halfway up the hill behind you btwn the grandstands you were in and Turn 5.
If you go this year let me know and we can meet somewhere and do a little
bench racing :)

First of all I am not trying to insult you but I feel I am the one that is
being insulted, cause I have shown proof of my statements as shown in my PI
Analysis. Now maybe this is not exactly the same as an actual Indycar would
show? I wouldnt know, as I have never driven one yet! (Maybe someday! Well,
I can dream cant I?)
Now the only thing I really dont see is the ability to see threshold
braking. I had smoke on but is not shown in the replay. Is there a way for
me to also verify this? You will see in my replay that i do back off a hair
on the brakes as I reach the Threshold. And at no time in this replay did I
completely lock the brakes up!

Now, I have never heard of the term "strawman argument", but if this is an
insult of my intelligence, I want you to know that all throughout my school
years I was consistently in accelerated classes, (MGM, we called this
Mentally Gifted Monkeys :) and in the Top 2 percentile.
I currently have a IQ of 150. I graduated a year early from High School
with Honors. I have an AA in Electronics and am currently working on my BA
in Engineering. So I just want you to know I am no stupid little kid arguing
for arguments sake. I have stated points which I believe are true, and I
feel they are proven in the PI Analysis.

No one wants to not emulate lock-up, but

You had to know how easily the points you made were going to

I really dont think they are refuted Randy, as I have shown that my steering
is Stable, and I can Threshold and Trail Brake just as I have stated, and
this is shown in the PI Analysis.

BTW if anyone else would like to see the PI Analysis E-Mail me and I would
be glad to send it to you!

Later

George

rec.autos.simulators

CPR: what breaks the full game?

CPR: what breaks the full game?

CPR: what breaks the full game?

CPR: what breaks the full game?

CPR: what breaks the full game?

CPR: what breaks the full game?

CPR: what breaks the full game?

CPR: what breaks the full game?

CPR: what breaks the full game?

CPR: what breaks the full game?

CPR: what breaks the full game?

CPR: what breaks the full game?

CPR: what breaks the full game?

CPR: what breaks the full game?

CPR: what breaks the full game?

CPR: what breaks the full game?