rec.autos.simulators

N2002 - LPI/IC bug!

Goy Larse

N2002 - LPI/IC bug!

by Goy Larse » Wed, 24 Apr 2002 23:41:17



> >So IMHO, it's no more useful than the kind of ranking we've got now, of
> >course, if you find people with 100 000 + laps and an LPI of 250 +, you
> >can be pretty sure he's a clean racer :-)

> People, people, why so much discussion over something totally
> unimportant like LPI values, when there are so much more beautiful
> things in the world like LOVE?

> Andre / continuing work on a romantic poem for his girlfriend (hmm..
> what rhymes on hooters?)

Hooters hooters
yum yum yum
Hooters hooters
on a girl that's dum(b)

--Al Bundy--

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"The Pits"    http://www.racesimcentral.net/

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels"
--Groucho Marx--

Goy Larse

N2002 - LPI/IC bug!

by Goy Larse » Wed, 24 Apr 2002 23:46:32


> > People, people, why so much discussion over something totally
> > unimportant like LPI values, when there are so much more beautiful
> > things in the world like LOVE?

> > Andre / continuing work on a romantic poem for his girlfriend (hmm..
> > what rhymes on hooters?)

> Andre, you have lost it :)

That would imply that he's actually had it at some point....

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"The Pits"    http://www.theuspits.com/

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels"
--Groucho Marx--

Goy Larse

N2002 - LPI/IC bug!

by Goy Larse » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 00:03:22


>   Exactly Goy.  I can take or leave LPI ratings.........hey, how about using
> that programming time for an improved damage model ? <G>

Or an AussieV8 sim....

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"The Pits"    http://www.theuspits.com/

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels"
--Groucho Marx--

Joachim Trens

N2002 - LPI/IC bug!

by Joachim Trens » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 03:14:19

Hi Olav,

don't forget that there will be far less wrecks on the servers checking for
lpi than you see at the moment. I.e., once the lpi patch has been
introduced, your lpi will be much safer as much less accidents will happen
on the servers that check lpi (as obviously, drivers causing wrecks like the
one you descrive won't be on these servers).

Achim



> > Hey I am opposed to that - I've worked so *** getting a high lpi :-)

> > I also think it shouldn't be reset every 30 races. You earn your lpi
over
> > the time, and it's a reality of life that you have to live with the sins
of
> > your past ;-)

> Not reset over 30 races, but only count the last 30 or whater number
> seems fit.

> I was in a Sierra Lowe's race yesterday which must have been one
> of the worst in history. For the first time I experienced to be
> collected by a wreck from behind. After I had tip-toed my car through
> a wreck, someone came full speed into it and plowed some cars into me
> while i was accelerating out of it. I also experienced beeing rear
> ended my the leader of the race when I went high so he could lap
> me. None of the wrecks was of my fault, but I collected 3 nice IC
> points.

> My reason for my suggested IC point history idea, is the same as in
> the ranking. In the ranking the best 8 of the 10 last races count,
> with the argument that you improve over time and everyone have a bad
> day from time to time. I mean that the lpi system should reflect some
> of that aswell. The clean drivers will still have a high lpi, and the
> ***driver will still have bad lpi, but at least it will reflect your
> current ability, not based on something you might have done a year ago.

> --
> Olav Malmin
> remove .spam when replying

Joachim Trens

N2002 - LPI/IC bug!

by Joachim Trens » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 03:21:07

without wanting to start rolling Tibethan prayer drums here ;-) but this
indeed is so far beyond everything I've ever seen that I think it was an
extremely unusual occurrence. Maybe due to the strange connection issues
around Sierra.com in the last two or three days, despite the fact that it
appeared ok to you (at least I've been seeing strange things, like CRC
errors and such).

Achim





> > But Ed, errors always happen. And 9 times in one race, honestly, this
must
> > be such an exception that he'll according to mathematical probability
> never
> > see this happen again, unless his connection to the server is very very
> bad
> > and then the warping makes the server think he actually touched the
other
> > cars. But that's not something N2k2 can help.

> > I honestly think from my own memory these mishaps don't happen more
often
> > than in ~3% of the cases. This really isn't an issue.

> > Achim

> My connection was perfect all race, and I was nowhere NEAR the incidents
> involved (as Phil will attest, or any others who were there). Something
went
> wrong with the reporting process, and I'd just like acknowledgement of
that
> fact.

Joachim Trens

N2002 - LPI/IC bug!

by Joachim Trens » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 03:45:45

The interesting side effect for us all will be, that someone who works as
hard as this just to get a high lpi will try very hard not to ruin that lpi
he worked for so hard in normal races.

He'll be a clean and intelligent racer, and it'll be great fun to dice with
him on the track, as he'll drive realistically focussed on finishing in one
piece, instead of on maintaining or acquiring however unimportant positions
in lap 1 or 2 of the race.

Achim


...
...

Joachim Trens

N2002 - LPI/IC bug!

by Joachim Trens » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 03:40:53

Nobody needs to sit out races. Until now you just had to learn to deal with
difficult racing conditions at times.

And this will improve a lot once lpi becomes a criterion for server entry.
It'll become easier as you won't be the only one doing it in a field of guys
who think they're entirely alone on the track. They'll start interacting
more, looking out for others more. It'll make the racing cleaner, and more
enjoyable.

Achim



> > If I start a new ID now, I'll probably have an LPI over 200. I've had
four
> > incidents in about 850 laps of RASCAR racing, one caused by myself which
> > didn't even bring out a yellow.

> > If I continue to use the ID I have now then my LPI is a 30.  If the LPI
> > "perfectly shows how good a driver is at clean racing", which kind of
driver
> > am I? 30 or 200+? See how inaccurate the LPI is right now at indicating
how
> > clean a driver is?

> You're absolutely right there.  That is a perfect example of how useless
> it is at rating a driver's ability.  The fact that one must either sit
> out races or create another ID to race with also attests to it's
> uselessness as an ability reflector.  Nobody can rightly pound their
> chest about how good they are if they've needed to keep multiple ID's in
> order to get that way.

> --

> Fester

> Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
>      -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>  4/15/02

Joachim Trens

N2002 - LPI/IC bug!

by Joachim Trens » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 03:46:49

:-)

I've been together with my wife for 14 years, and I still love her deeply.
Almost incredible, but true :-)

Achim



> >So IMHO, it's no more useful than the kind of ranking we've got now, of
> >course, if you find people with 100 000 + laps and an LPI of 250 +, you
> >can be pretty sure he's a clean racer :-)

> People, people, why so much discussion over something totally
> unimportant like LPI values, when there are so much more beautiful
> things in the world like LOVE?

> Andre / continuing work on a romantic poem for his girlfriend (hmm..
> what rhymes on hooters?)

Joachim Trens

N2002 - LPI/IC bug!

by Joachim Trens » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 03:48:53

This is the main misconception. On Sierra.com we all race with a mix of
other drivers, sometimes clean pro's, sometimes trigger-happy rookies. The
lpi shows a picture of how we fare in that mix of racing situations. And
it's the same for most of us.

Achim



...
...

Joachim Trens

N2002 - LPI/IC bug!

by Joachim Trens » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 03:56:41

the point you were trying to make (or the question you were asking) didn't
come across too clearly to me in your first message, in the light of what
has been said before about the lpi issue recently - imo ;-)

Achim


> You're missing my point 'Achim...   I just wanted to know a) if this know
> bug. b) if they got a cure for it...    wither it happen often or not is
> beside the point - imo.

> --
> ed_



> > But Ed, errors always happen. And 9 times in one race, honestly, this
must
> > be such an exception that he'll according to mathematical probability
> never
> > see this happen again, unless his connection to the server is very very
> bad
> > and then the warping makes the server think he actually touched the
other
> > cars. But that's not something N2k2 can help.

> > I honestly think from my own memory these mishaps don't happen more
often
> > than in ~3% of the cases. This really isn't an issue.

> > Achim



> > > Going back to the topic here...  What Colin said occured in the race
is
> > > something that shouldnt happen - right?

> > > "Eric Busch" said:
> > > > While that would be great in theory, I don't see how that would be
> > > > possible to implement.  People watching the race can't always decide
> > > > who's at fault, so how would you expect a computer to make that same
> > > <SNIPPED!>

Joachim Trens

N2002 - LPI/IC bug!

by Joachim Trens » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 04:02:54

Hi Dave,

You're a driver who under favourable conditions is able to drive quite error
free, i.e. you won't make too many unforced errors, but you haven't
developed the strategies yet to stay out of trouble when things get rough.
Your two lpi's paint a clear picture of your characteristic as a racer.

And your lpi mirrors this. I.e., it shows a realistic picture of
your priorities. To me, the lpi has always been an at least equally
important value to the others, and my lpi shows this as well.

Please don't misunderstand this as a personal attack or criticism - this is
not what I am trying to do at all. I just really think that the lpi shows a
clear picture of what a driver has been doing. Not perfect in all detail,
but at least in terms of showing a tendency.

Apologies if I repeat myself, but I brought one ID from 0 to 5 on RC's in
about a week, with an lpi of currently around 50 (Littlefeat). I raced
mostly on the fixed setup Papy RC Loop servers.

I personally think an lpi of 50 will get me into most any race that'll be on
offer after the lpi patch, and am not in the least worried that this might
not be enough. Don't forget that we were all facing the same probs. Nobody
will on a large scale start asking lpi's of 100 or more on their servers, as
there simply aren't enough drivers who have such high lpi's (except for
newbies after their first race, if they're lucky :-)

Well I'm not saying this will all be perfect or anything. I'm just saying
it's a valuable addition to the ranking system, and I think we all should
welcome it. I don't see any major hickups even in the beginning as we're all
starting from the same situation and background, so there won't be any
wonder-lpi's anywhere. And as time passes, things will develop a clear
shape.

And as I said in another message, races will just get better with everyone
being more concerned about their lpi. It's to the best of us all.

Well, I have been working for this lpi ever since I started racing on
Sierra.com, as the lpi appeared to me always to be the most important
indicator for how good and realistic a racer someone is. I've always pulled
back when I could to avoid the accident (and it's brought me points anyway
as I've finished more often than otherwise), I've often rather braked when
things got critical than going through a melee at full speed with my eyes
closed, I've always driven with the guideline in my head that the most
important thing is finishing without having offs, as just one single off is
likely to cost me more time than I can ever make up in the entire race by
driving like an alien.

I've always aimed for a compromise between aggressive racing for
the win, and holding back when it seemed reasonable. IMO my
lpi's mirrors this, and I'd hate to lose the result of all the work ;-)

Well, you know my opinion. I would get a high lpi again (higher than right
now as I very often was the special target of wreckers who went for the
leader), but
I'd lose the result of everything I've achieved so far in that respect on
Sierra.com, while those who didn't pay attention to their lpi would get a
present :-)

Achim

Uncle Feste

N2002 - LPI/IC bug!

by Uncle Feste » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 01:32:58


> .... as he'll drive realistically focussed on finishing in one
> piece, instead of on maintaining or acquiring however unimportant positions
> in lap 1 or 2 of the race.

Doesn't sound like real-world NASCAR to me!  :-P

--

Fester

Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
     -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>  4/15/02

reverend ro

N2002 - LPI/IC bug!

by reverend ro » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 01:57:55

wow,  this almost sounds like a religious thing to you?  it seems the
biggest worry here are the incidents happening that have nothing to do at
all with the skill of the driver.

if you're saying part of the skill of the driver is divining which race will
not have someone that will wreck him is part of the formula, then i can
agree with you when you belly up to the bar and slap the cowboy reaching for
the pickled pigs feet!

wreckers aren't complaining, the non-wreckers are.  people getting caught in
a racing crash aren't complaining, people being crashed are.

and the original thread--- not one person got charged with the 9
happenings.....all the drivers did.

yr argument that dave hasn't developed racing strategies to stay out of
trouble only hold true if he was in an environment with excellent drivers
all the time.   he's not so therefore it is NOT an accurate representation
of HIS skills.

damn, i'm starting to sound religious now...


Colin Harri

N2002 - LPI/IC bug!

by Colin Harri » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 02:22:26


Close: SOME of the drivers got charged with ALL 9 incidents, most got
charged with considerably more than they were involved in, and Phil seems to
be the only one who got reported correctly.
 The original point remains, though - there's a reporting bug. Eric Busch,
bless him, has obviously seen this thread because he's replied to a post
within it, I'd just be interested to know if this has been reported before
and what the possible causes are.

Goy Larse

N2002 - LPI/IC bug!

by Goy Larse » Thu, 25 Apr 2002 02:31:57


> The interesting side effect for us all will be, that someone who works as
> hard as this just to get a high lpi will try very hard not to ruin that lpi
> he worked for so hard in normal races.

> He'll be a clean and intelligent racer, and it'll be great fun to dice with
> him on the track, as he'll drive realistically focussed on finishing in one
> piece, instead of on maintaining or acquiring however unimportant positions
> in lap 1 or 2 of the race.

....or he could be one of those who will do anything to win, including
the T1 hero stuff and needs to pad his LPI to get over the "magical" LPI
number deemed appropriate to participate in various races

Most PW'ed races back on TEN where the the host wanted to screen your
LPI would settle for around 20 usually

If you do race a lot of pickup races, it's not uncommon, or at least it
wasn't uncommon, to be in the 20-30 range, especially on the SS as you
need to stay with the pack to have a prayer and you won't have much time
to react when something happens

Sorry, LPI *is* a tool for judging people's racing ability, but it's
"just another tool" if you ask me, nice to have but I'm not going all ga
ga over it :-)

Now, an AussieV8 mod/add-on/patch on the other hand....:-)

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

http://www.theuspits.com
http://www.teammirage.com

"Animation isn't the illusion of life; it is life"
--Chuck Jones (1912-2002)--


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