rec.autos.simulators

by **Andrew3** » Wed, 01 Sep 1999 04:00:00

I think Logitech has received a bad rap for the pedals. Right out of the
box they do need a bit more resistance, but they work well. After an hour
or so of use you'll find they do a good job. I've replaced the springs and
added pedal covers to increase the size of the pedals. Two very easy
modifications that contribute mightly to the entire feel of the Logitech
wheel.

So the only weak link for the LWFF is the pedals, but you readily admit that
the Microsoft wheel steals cpu cycles. That is not fixable with a
screwdriver and $2. Seems to me that is a greater flaw in design than any
commited by Logitech. Steering is only half of it, performance is the other
and the LWFF comes out on top. The only area I see that Microsoft excels is
in the optical components.

-Andrew

by **Julian Taylo** » Thu, 02 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Alison comes out strongly in favour of the Logitech v MSFF wheel. I think
theres one of two things people need to bear in mind though:
1) The MSFF pedals are fine - I had CH Pedals and find the MSFF pedals as
good. For a lot or people - especially those outside the US - having to
purchase CH Pedals after spending a lot of money already on a wheel, is a
significant factor. Here in NZ CH Pedals cost around $90 USD if you can find
them. Add that to USD 150 for the wheel - so a big chunk extra. The MSFF
wheel retails for around USD 150 too, and you're ready to go.
2) Whilst the MSFF wheel uses more cpu cycles, for me, it hasnt translated
into a noticeable frame-rate hit - I still get 36fps most of the time. My
system a Celeron 300A at 450mhz, soundblaster live value and voodoo3. It
reminded me of the claims made by the PDPI card - from posts I saw, whilst
the theory sounded convincing, people didnt seem to notice a big frame rate
improvement. Real world results is what counts. Granted, for people with
slower systems, the cpu usage of the MSFF wheel may become a factor.
3) I like the fact the MSFF wheel has a digital/optical device which never
goes out of calibration. How long will the pots on the Logitech last? Only
time will tell which wheel provides long term reliability.

Anyway - just some thoughts - I havent used a Logitech wheel so readily
accept that it may be better on the steering side - but steering is only
half of it - if Logitech were so bent on producing a quality product - how
could they let themselves put those pedals with the wheel.

by **Randy Wilso** » Thu, 02 Sep 1999 04:00:00

I bought my MSFF about a year ago (as an all purpose replacement to my T2)
and it's holding up quite well. The LWFF wasn't even available (in Canada)
to do any comparisons on, then.
I think the pedals are great and have had no problems with anything (so
far). MS, of course, does not release a new patche each month like the
Wingman team does (or at least used to).
With a C400 (O/C'd to 450) & an SBLive, I'm still getting 36FPS in GPL with
FF turned on (except at the start, of course)

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, of course.

Randy

>Alison comes out strongly in favour of the Logitech v MSFF wheel. I think
>theres one of two things people need to bear in mind though:
>1) The MSFF pedals are fine - I had CH Pedals and find the MSFF pedals as
>good. For a lot or people - especially those outside the US - having to
>purchase CH Pedals after spending a lot of money already on a wheel, is a
>significant factor. Here in NZ CH Pedals cost around $90 USD if you can
find
>them. Add that to USD 150 for the wheel - so a big chunk extra. The MSFF
>wheel retails for around USD 150 too, and you're ready to go.
>2) Whilst the MSFF wheel uses more cpu cycles, for me, it hasnt translated
>into a noticeable frame-rate hit - I still get 36fps most of the time. My
>system a Celeron 300A at 450mhz, soundblaster live value and voodoo3. It
>reminded me of the claims made by the PDPI card - from posts I saw, whilst
>the theory sounded convincing, people didnt seem to notice a big frame rate
>improvement. Real world results is what counts. Granted, for people with
>slower systems, the cpu usage of the MSFF wheel may become a factor.
>3) I like the fact the MSFF wheel has a digital/optical device which never
>goes out of calibration. How long will the pots on the Logitech last? Only
>time will tell which wheel provides long term reliability.

>Anyway - just some thoughts - I havent used a Logitech wheel so readily
>accept that it may be better on the steering side - but steering is only
>half of it - if Logitech were so bent on producing a quality product - how
>could they let themselves put those pedals with the wheel.

by **Fredrik Th?rnel** » Thu, 02 Sep 1999 04:00:00

[snip]

I second that. I was set on buying a LWFF wheel sometime this fall, probably
in a month or two when my economy is back on its feet (they're still around
$175 here). As it was, I came across a used MSFF for $75 which kinda settled
it. Either that now, or a LWFF in three months...

So far, I'm very happy. The FF does let you feel the gears a bit, or possibly
more hear than feel them but they're noticeable anyway. And when reversing the
movement of the wheel, it does take it a half-inch or so of movement at the
rim before you get FF the other way. I always forget this the moment I head
into the first corner though.

The pedals are great. Well on par with my CH pedals.

And as for system resources, I don't notice it at all. I have a lowly

installing the MSFF.

So far, my main gripe is that it is made by M$, that I'd like real shift
paddles, that I want a clutch and... Well, I think that's it.

Cheers,
/ft

by **Joel Willstei** » Fri, 03 Sep 1999 04:00:00

>So the only weak link for the LWFF is the pedals, but you readily admit
that
>the Microsoft wheel steals cpu cycles. That is not fixable with a
>screwdriver and $2. Seems to me that is a greater flaw in design than any
>commited by Logitech. Steering is only half of it, performance is the
other
>and the LWFF comes out on top. The only area I see that Microsoft excels
is
>in the optical components.

>-Andrew

I've been using a MSFF wheel for more than 2months now,and with my AMD
K6-2/450 and Vodoo3 3000,I get a rock solid 36 pfs online with all graphics
except people and cars only in the mirrors. So loosing some cpu cycles
hasn't been a issue with me.

Joel Willstein

by **Tony Whitle** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Alison says that the MSFF uses more CPU cycles, but I'm sure that Randy said
on this NG that it was the Logitech that used 4,000,000 or something. It
was one of the reasons I bought the MSFF (along with the pedals and the
price). I do notice an fps hit on my C400/Voodoo2 but it's worth living with
just for the extra realism. Doesn't make me any faster though...

Half on the subject, anyone have the details for making the MSFF split-axis?
Is it possible?

--
Tony Whitley
Remove M A P S to reply

by **Fredrik Th?rnel** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

> Alison says that the MSFF uses more CPU cycles, but I'm sure that Randy said
> on this NG that it was the Logitech that used 4,000,000 or something. It
> was one of the reasons I bought the MSFF (along with the pedals and the
> price). I do notice an fps hit on my C400/Voodoo2 but it's worth living with
> just for the extra realism. Doesn't make me any faster though...

As someone else suggested today in this NG, maybe it is dependand on the
soundcard? I do not know exactly how MIDI works, but I could see some
soundcards placing more load on the processor than others - as with other
interface cards.

Hmm, is it possible to use it non-split-axis? :)

I've been using it as split axis since I got it. Never seen any setting for it
though, in fact I never considered it. I just checked it was possible before I
bought it and that was it.

Cheers,
/ft

by **Andre Warrin** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

I'm quite sure you're wrong here...I read several times that the MS
uses much more cpu cycles than the logitech...

Andre

by **EXCHANGE:HAL02:HQ** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

> I've been using it as split axis since I got it. Never seen any setting for it
> though, in fact I never considered it. I just checked it was possible before I
> bought it and that was it.

You have to explicitly set it up as Split axis. Using the profile
editor, create a new profile, and under settings, check the separate
pedal axis

Paul
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nortel, London Road, Harlow, Essex. CM17 9NA

by **Fredrik Th?rnel** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

> I'm quite sure you're wrong here...I read several times that the MS
> uses much more cpu cycles than the logitech...

Well, I wonder where those CPU cycles might be coming from then, since on my
lowly P166/V2 system I did not get a noticeable framerate hit when going from
gameport joystick to MSFF.

As I stated in an earlier post in this thread the guy who suggested it might
depend on the sound card you have and how much CPU is needed to operate its
MIDI might very well be right.

Cheers,
/ft, who BTW has a seven years or so old SB 16 (or was it Pro? Hmm, don't
even remember, but it does the job)

by **DLK** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

FWIW: This is what Randy previously stated:

I've heard (though not through any official channels) that MS is working on
a USB version of their FF wheel. And that would be an exceptionally Good
Thing. It seems that clocking FF commands out through the MIDI lines is
rather slow. These are the approximate timings I've measured on my Win95
PII-400 for issuing our force
commands to three different wheels (your mileage may vary):

3,500,000 cycles - Thrustmaster Force GT (USB)
1,500,000 cycles - Microsoft Sidewinder FF wheel (MIDI/game port)
55,000 cycles - Logitech Wingman Formula Force (serial)

Which translates to a 32% (!?!?!?!?!), 13.5% (!!), and 0.5% (ahhhh...) CPU
hit.

by **Andre Warrin** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Well that clears things up a bit. 32%... unbelievable!

Andre

>FWIW: This is what Randy previously stated:

>I've heard (though not through any official channels) that MS is working on
>a USB version of their FF wheel. And that would be an exceptionally Good
>Thing. It seems that clocking FF commands out through the MIDI lines is
>rather slow. These are the approximate timings I've measured on my Win95
>PII-400 for issuing our force
>commands to three different wheels (your mileage may vary):

>3,500,000 cycles - Thrustmaster Force GT (USB)
>1,500,000 cycles - Microsoft Sidewinder FF wheel (MIDI/game port)
>55,000 cycles - Logitech Wingman Formula Force (serial)

>Which translates to a 32% (!?!?!?!?!), 13.5% (!!), and 0.5% (ahhhh...) CPU
>hit.

>> I'm quite sure you're wrong here...I read several times that the MS
>> uses much more cpu cycles than the logitech...

>> Andre

by **Antti Markus Pete** » Sun, 05 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Yes, for a USB Thrustmaster Force GT, that truly is unbelievable. As for
MSFF's 13.5%, as much as it sounds, it's surprising that in practice this
never seems to become an issue. On similar systems (Cel450 in this case)
there doesn't appear to be any difference in LWFF's and MSFF's
performance that one could notice without conducting extensive
measurements and what's IMPORTANT, I've yet to see it affect the actual
gameplay, should there be such a difference. This based on comparisons
made on my and my friend's computers (same CPU, vidcard, sndcard & amount
of mem) using LWFF and MSFF, playing GPL, SCGT, NFSHS, Powerslide, Viper
Racing and MGPRS2. I think we're lucky to have these fine FF wheels to
choose from.

---
Antti Markus Peteri

15 miles. your dim light shines from so far away

- Soul Asylum, Promises Broken

by **Hena Hakkane** » Tue, 07 Sep 1999 04:00:00

>Alison says that the MSFF uses more CPU cycles, but I'm sure that Randy
said
>on this NG that it was the Logitech that used 4,000,000 or something. It
>was one of the reasons I bought the MSFF (along with the pedals and the
>price). I do notice an fps hit on my C400/Voodoo2 but it's worth living
with
>just for the extra realism. Doesn't make me any faster though...

Sorry, but you are wrong, Here's Randy's post about CPU cycles:

"I've heard (though not through any official channels) that MS is working on
a USB version of their FF wheel. And that would be an exceptionally Good
Thing. It seems that clocking FF commands out through the MIDI lines is
rather slow. These are the approximate timings I've measured on my Win95
PII-400 for issuing our force
commands to three different wheels (your mileage may vary):

3,500,000 cycles - Thrustmaster Force GT (USB)
1,500,000 cycles - Microsoft Sidewinder FF wheel (MIDI/game port)
55,000 cycles - Logitech Wingman Formula Force (serial)

Which translates to a 32% (!?!?!?!?!), 13.5% (!!), and 0.5% (ahhhh...) CPU
hit.

Randy"

According to this, MSFF uses MUCH more (almost 30 times as much) CPU cycles
than LWFF. This post was one of the reasons I picked up LWFF ...

Hena

by **Tony Whitle** » Wed, 08 Sep 1999 04:00:00

I'd better read the posts more carefully in future! Anyway, I'm happy with
the MSFF, although I haven't tried the Logitech so I don't know about that.
I experimented yesterday and found that I seem to be stuck at 34fps whether
I have 12 opponents (what I usually have) or 5. Something's funny
somewhere...

Tony "slowpoke" Whitley
(Hey! I once saw 1.06(.9999) round WG!)
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