rec.autos.simulators

While we are working on enhancing the AI for Papyrus' NASCAR Racing 2,
we are spending alot of time at the track.  I am running across a
pitting bug that I know I have seen before and has been reported here in
r.a.s., in the past.  I have tried and tried to find a solution, but it
has eluded me.  I think it's something that Papyrus should look into and
fix for all of us.

The problem is most apparent at short tracks (tracks with pits on the
front and back stretch), though I've seen it on occasion at other
tracks.  The AI car comes into the pit under green, but doesn't get down
low enough.  As it approaches the pit wall between the pits and the
track, it smacks the car's nose on the end of the pit wall and then

1) slides down the outside of the pit wall until it "materializes"
through the wall and slides into its pit stall.

2) Veers maddly across the race track to the outside wall and then
slides back to the pit wall to "materialize" to its pit stall.

After analyzing many replays of these buggy pit attempts, I have come to
the conclusion that the trigger for the event is that the AI was not
"pulled" into the pitting groove for its approach to the pits.  Whenever
a car successfully slides down to the pitting groove, they successfully
make a correct pit entrance.  But, 99.99999% of the time when the car
doesn't get down low for the pitting groove, but instead follows the
inside groove to the pit entrance, it smacks the wall and wrecks havoc.

This happens at an extremely high rate at Martinsville.  To test it out,
edit the mrtnsvil.txt file and change the pit window to 6 and 9
(SPDWY 0 6 9).  Don't qualify so you will be at the rear of the field.
When the green flag drops pull off the track and park your car on the
inside wall about 4-5 car lengths before your pit stall.  Change to the
2nd outside view (F10) and sit and wait.  Once the cars starting pitting
you should see this happen by 14 laps.  This also happens on the back
stretch and the spotter will call out "car stopped low on the back
straight".  Check the replays and you will see it all unfold.

I am beginning to think this is "tied" to the problem with the Atlanta
yellow flag pit bug.  Besides yanking a few lines from the atlanta.txt
file, it looks like Papyrus fixed the track.dat file for Atlanta.  No
wonder they haven't fixed it for other tracks.  It was just more blatant
at Atlanta cuz it happened on every yellow flag pit situation.  But, one
would assume that they know how to fix the problem.  Since we have a
long wait until N3, it would be nice if Papyrus decided to fix N2
until then.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

%While we are working on enhancing the AI for Papyrus' NASCAR Racing
%2, we are spending alot of time at the track.  I am running across a
%pitting bug that I know I have seen before and has been reported here
%in r.a.s., in the past.  I have tried and tried to find a solution,
%but it has eluded me.  I think it's something that Papyrus should
l%ook into and fix for all of us.
%

Wait, what? You mean you *aren't* totally biased toward Papy products,
and you *do* find fault with them???

Imagine that :)
What are you, some sort of level headed fruitcake or something!?
If so, you certainly don't belong in here!

-Rob
 (papyrus, PLEASE look into this... It really is the least you could
do.)

%While we are working on enhancing the AI for Papyrus' NASCAR Racing
%2, we are spending alot of time at the track.  I am running across a
%pitting bug that I know I have seen before and has been reported here
%in r.a.s., in the past.  I have tried and tried to find a solution,
%but it has eluded me.  I think it's something that Papyrus should
l%ook into and fix for all of us.
%

Wait, what? You mean you *aren't* totally biased toward Papy products,
and you *do* find fault with them???

Imagine that :)
What are you, some sort of level headed fruitcake or something!?
If so, you certainly don't belong in here!

-Rob
 (papyrus, PLEASE look into this... It really is the least you could
do.)

I have experienced the same while working on AI and during racing.  I would
also like to point out that I have tried many times to plead for fix for
the AI poor pit decisions under caution - which typically leads to many of
the lead lap cars going down a lap and the lead pack of cars getting
seperated.   I have forwarded 'C' code to Papy which implements a very
simple pit under yellow algorythm in an effort to show that this should be
a very simple problem to fix.  I do understand that fixing existing product
revisions does not yield profit to Sierra/Papyrus - however some of these
fixes will also appy to future sims (e.g. NASCAR 3) and some will help keep
the customers satisfied until the next release (which they most certainly
will buy).  /TomH

%% I have forwarded 'C' code to Papy which implements a very
%simple pit under yellow algorythm in an effort to show that this
%should be a very simple problem to fix.  

Hi Tom,
I, for one, am glad this is finally public knowledge (the fact that
you actually wrote and sent them code that could be adapted to N2).
Now everyone can see exactly how hard it is for us to work with
Papyrus, as well as how customers going above and beyond the call of
'duty' goes completly ignored by them..

Personally, I thought Tony Johns getting a job there was in our favor,
but I haven't seen anything to prove me right. Maybe he doesn't have
the power to actaully get it done, but obviously they respect him
enough to hire him and move him and his family back east, so I'd
imagine he atleast has a voice louder than most of us.
I hate to put anyone on the spot, but Tony please go to bat for us!
The game is *not* finished... Nor are 100% races handeld realistically
due to the pitting under yellow problems.. N1 did not have this
problem, ICR2 did, and now N2 does.

Believe me, we'd fix it ourselves if we could (ie. the LP's that have
been created) and not utter a harsh word toward Papy, but we can't fix
this.
Please take a small amount of time and fix this glaring error.. If for
nothing else than to show some respect for the sim racers who allowed
your company to get to it's present financial state!

We put quality food on your tables, now return some quality products
to our HD's.. Please!
If not for those that bought ICR1/N1/ICR2/N2 there would be no GPL,
N3, etc... And life *may* not be so grand for you guys to live the
dream.

Here's hoping..
-Rob

% I have experienced the same while working on AI and during racing.  I would
% also like to point out that I have tried many times to plead for fix for
% the AI poor pit decisions under caution - which typically leads to many of
% the lead lap cars going down a lap and the lead pack of cars getting
% seperated.   I have forwarded 'C' code to Papy which implements a very
% simple pit under yellow algorythm in an effort to show that this should be
% a very simple problem to fix.  I do understand that fixing existing product
% revisions does not yield profit to Sierra/Papyrus - however some of these
% fixes will also appy to future sims (e.g. NASCAR 3) and some will help keep
% the customers satisfied until the next release (which they most certainly
% will buy).  /TomH

Tom, that's been one of my biggest gripes with Papyrus.  Once they have
put out a couple of patches to fix the glaring errors, they stop
"fixing" things that are sill broken.  And since each progressive sim
has some components from the previous engines these bugs seem to get
carried from one product to the next (sorta like a virus).  One would
think that it would make sense to find out what's broken in the current
release to insure it doesn't flare up in the next release.  For instance
the HOG bug from N1 to ICR2.  Well, they did work to find that bug and
guess what, it didn't show up in N2.  While the yellow pitting situation
you point out isn't really a bug as much as a bad programming decision,
it's one that has plagued their sims for quite some time.  Okay, so
maybe they won't "re-program" the sim to make it "smarter", but damn it,
I think they should sqaush them bugs.  And while they were at it, it
would be nice if they fixed the pitting under yellow algorythm. <g>

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% I have experienced the same while working on AI and during racing.  I would
% also like to point out that I have tried many times to plead for fix for
% the AI poor pit decisions under caution - which typically leads to many of
% the lead lap cars going down a lap and the lead pack of cars getting
% seperated.   I have forwarded 'C' code to Papy which implements a very
% simple pit under yellow algorythm in an effort to show that this should be
% a very simple problem to fix.  I do understand that fixing existing product
% revisions does not yield profit to Sierra/Papyrus - however some of these
% fixes will also appy to future sims (e.g. NASCAR 3) and some will help keep
% the customers satisfied until the next release (which they most certainly
% will buy).  /TomH

Well while attempting to fix the pitting problems with the cars bouncing
across the track, I discovered another bug in yellow pitting.  On the
short tracks the cars that pit on the back get to sneak into their pits
before the leaders on the front stretch.  Since they are back towards
the rear they can get into their pits when the "pits are open" signal is
given.  They are then out on the track and behind the pace car before
those who pit on the front stretch.  So the leaders get pushed to the
back of the pack.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I'll fix it.  Where's the non-disclosure ??  /TomH

ps.  By the way - I do understand the business case for not fixing
everything that Papy customers ask for.  This one just happens to ruin a
perfect racing experience for me (boo-hoo).