Of course there are a number of higher end wheels (BRD, TSW) which have not
gone down the FF route for the very reasons Tom suggests.
Cheers
Tony
Thanks Tony, very much.
Unfortunately I am not living in US. I am from Croatia. You know,
Balkan. I'll take a Thrustmaster wheel, I have a good experience with TM.
But cannot decide which one right now, because it looks like TM site is down
today.
Higher end wheels are out of the question. I could afford one, but
adding shipping cost is too much for me. Even if I could possibly stretch
enough to add shipping cost, I still have to bring it into my country. And
my country didn't change much, back from the days of Dracula. You know, at
the entrance we have a huge fat man, with even huger axe. And he demands
that for every wheel I am bringing into country, I also must bring one for a
local pharaon's son. Which maybe also wouldn't be too much, except that that
son isn't used to a simulation wheels, but to real ones. And he just don't
like the one he got with a brand new Rolls-Royce he has, so he wants another
one. IOW, it wouldn't be like 20 % or so taxes, but
I-am-even-afraid-to-think-how-much %.
Sorry for this, : ), but I just like so much to explain civilized
people in what conditions I am living, so that they don't possibly allow
something like this in their own countries. -- Mario
I was not trying to "preach" but was trying to help out since it didn't seem
to me that he understood that it wasn't "required" to include the original
text in a reply post.
Something tells me that there's something about my posts you think is
inappropriate and since this is a brand new installation of WinXP on a new
computer, I very well could have something set wrong on my newsgroup program
(Outlook Express....which I only use for newsgroups.....not a lot of memory
with how to set it and use it). Please help me out, if you can.....what's
wrong with my posts? I will fix it immediately.
Thanks,
Tom
The FF effects you speak of (gear twitching when you shift) are not really
FF cues, but audible cues that you have just become accustomed to receiving
via "feel cues" because you race with a FF wheel. But, I hear you
completely.....once you have those cues.....in any form, you miss them when
they are gone. I may add another important one (to the shifting gear cue)
and that is when you run over a curb....particularly the FIA type
rumble-strip curbs.
Though we don't use FF in our sims because of reasons I've posted already,
we do use engine/sound vibration actuators which replace those "shifting and
curb" cues with a vibration "twitch" - very easily felt through the steering
wheel (steering train), particularly when running over rumble strip curbing.
There's various ways to do this we've found, but unfortunately - they are
all expensive. Currently, we use a device called an actuator (they have
other names). Essentially they are like a big speaker magnet....without the
sound cone. On my WC***pit, I have two of them (you need to have them
connected to a totally separate amplifier from your primary sound amps)
mounted at the back of the Kirkey racing seat (just above belt level at the
small of your back) and another that is steel-strapped to the steering
column. The vibration is so accurate, you don't have to look at the tach
for rev-limit shifting and this picks up every shift (I enhanced the "clunk"
shift sound in NR003 to help out this "clank" vibration when shifting) and
vibrates the hell out of the steering wheel when banging the curbs (which is
a no no, in a real race car....except for F1). We feed this vibration
system with the "rear center channel" of a Dolby 6.1 sound system......that
channel has about 90% of the full sound wave (using the sub-woofer channel
just does not work).....works very well. The problem: The total costs is
around $2000 for the equipment......not very cost effective for the average
sim racer.
On the question of what wheel to use: I don't use "plastic game" wheels any
more.....and I'm not putting anyone down who does because I totally
understand that you all would use real-life, metal, fabricated from real
racing components.....if you could afford them. I can.....I make
them.....so I do. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate all the years I
raced with my Thrustmaster plastic wheel (and still had a blast doing it).
But, if I had to go buy one "game-store" racing wheel right now and that was
all I could use, then I would by a Thrustmaster Pro (Digital) 2 racing
wheel. I used one for many years.....from their very first design. They
are the best all around controller on the market for the price.....with
paddles for running F1 or other open wheel sims.....and sequential shifter
for GT, sports car and NASCAR sim racing. You can't beat it......not at any
price for "game level" racing controls. I even think it is as good as BRD's
controls and I have several of those sets as well as Thrustmasters Digital
Pro 2 wheels. By the way, on the TM Dig Pro-2.....stick a piece of hard
*** (about a half inch thick) under the brake pedal.....tape it in place
if it won't stay....and you'll improve the "feel" of your brake pedal about
2000%. Easy, cheap trick....it really works nice on a TM Dig Pro-2
controller (not so well on BRD's or MS FF or AL's controls).
Hope this info helps you to improve your "emersion experience" sim racing?
Regards,
tom
Well i go away for a bit and this is what has happened... lol,
So does anyone have a set of these 3d gig`s that you where.. do they
work...?
Thanks. I wasn't strolling computer shops for a long time, but I
hope I'll find it. We have a limited choice over here (in Croatia). I don't
remember that I saw that particular wheel for some time. I remember I used
to see MS non-FF, and the other TM a lot. But they are cheap now. I'll buy
what I find, and can easily replace it for Dig Pro later, if I don't find it
in first try. Yes, it looks like this is the wheel to have. Everybody have
good words for it.
BTW, I dismantled my Thrustmaster FF GT, and will not use it again,
so I cannot recheck, but believe me, when I shift gears it IS FF, : ).
-- Mario
I believe some rephrasing would be neceseary here, if you expect
some answer from me (if this is meant for me to answer?). -- Mario
Thanks again Tom:
I have another obstacle. I have a 21 inch monitor, but it's
on a coffee table and I work, and drive, on a couch. I'd guess
it's about 5 feet from my face. So my 21" monitor is smaller
than it seems.
What are you currently using for a display, and how far is it
from the drivers eyes?
This might be personal taste. I can feel like I'm in motion
watching nose cam shots, from cars, planes or space ships, if I'm
centered in a movie theater. Not front row, but a couple of rows
forward of "center-center" is close enough to feed my peripheral
vision while I'm watching the middle of the screen. So I was
thinking this would translate to sims.
> Our brains are very good a creating a simulated environment for us.....when
> we do tasks in a simulator (fly, race, etc.). Let's say there are 10
> elements, or "inputs" of data.....that we receive when racing in a real race
> car. 10 categories of data/input to our brains, like: Sight (visuals),
> sound, smell, g-force, vibration, etc. If you put the brain into a
> simulated environment that does 5 to 7 of those really well (does them well
> enough to be believable by our brain as real), then the brain helps us out
> and starts filling in the missing items! However, if we put our brain into
> a simulator environment that does 5 to 7 things really well, but it does the
> 8th thing really badly (like g-forces that are not timed properly to the
> visual event...and I mean the timing has to be dead on perfect....not off by
> a milli-second because our brains can tell when it is), then the brain will
> actually discount and discard all the really good things and say...."Nope,
> this whole experience is not realistic!"
> Racing from the nose cam: I think its fun, and sometimes I do it just to
> have fun with it. But, it is not realistic and while it gives you an
> illusion of speed.....its not an illusion of speed that you get from racing
> in a real racing car. It's not even close!
> In a real race car, the driver has input as to how hard he's working the
> tires comes from two sensory inputs:
> 1. Sound.....this represents about 90% of the sensory input he relies on.
> Our sims do an excellent job of this and if set right, our brains totally
> believe the tire squeal they hear in our simulators.
Who's using these simulators you're building? What are
they using them for? When ECCI left the consumer market
several years ago they didn't stop making wheels. I was
wondering who they were selling to.
What I'm looking for is emersion, to the point where
I feel familiar with the simulated vehicle, and can push
it to it's limits. Something I've never been able to do.
> You don't need to spend a ton of money to do some little things that will
> help your brain to stop thinking its sitting at a computer.....and start
> thinking its sitting in a race car!
> Have fun with it,
Thanks
Larry
Eldred
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Eldred
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> How is that 'training' accomplished? I've had GPL for about 4 years, and
I'm
> still never sure exactly what the car is going to do. Very often I'm
sideways
> before I'm even aware that I've lost traction. For whatever reason, I'm
not
> picking up on the visual(and/or aural) cues that the faster guys have
> internalized.
After god knows how many laps of GPL for 4 years I suddenly found approx a
second per minute at each track. I drove FD/F2 for a year before returning
to F1 and finding an instant increase in F1 speed having been pretty ***at
F2!
Cheers
Tony
Tom
I'll try to answer your questions, but I'm a little pressed for time
tonight....so don't take maybe a short answer or two as my not being
interested in your questions.....they are all pretty good ones.
"I have another obstacle. I have a 21 inch monitor, but it's
on a coffee table and I work, and drive, on a couch. I'd guess
it's about 5 feet from my face. So my 21" monitor is smaller
than it seems.
What are you currently using for a display, and how far is it
from the drivers eyes?"
I have to tell you the couch and coffee table monitor is not good. But,
you have to live with what you have to live with......so that's all I'll say
about that.
The monitor I use for personal racing (NASCAR or sports car) is a 21"
and in my***pit it is exactly 18" from my nose. That is something a tad
on the personal side, but that distance, the screen res I use and the
driving FOV I use pretty much gives me a duplicate field of vision to what I
have in either a GTA car (a type of stock car similar to a Winston Cup car)
or in something like a TransAm car. In fact, just today I sat in Huffaker's
Jaguar TransAm car, talking with him about the driving view, and how
restricted it is in such a big car (the driver sits way toward the rear of
the car with this huge "boat" like bow that is the hood.....and you can
barely see over it. I would guess the first instance where you can see the
ground/track in front of you is a good 30 or 40 feet ahead of the car's
nose...maybe more, I didn't measure it but maybe I will go do that
tomorrow).
I don't use a***pit for open wheel racing (at home), I just sort of
use a "make-do" setup at the office desk where I do my business and the
track graphics work. I do have a racing seat which I pull up to the desk,
its laid back so my body is in the position of almost laying down on my back
(like in an F1 car, or most open wheel cars). The steering wheel (with
paddles) is almost full-extension arms length away, but I have the monitor
on a sliding bracket (easy to do, just go buy a rack-mount drawer slides at
most computer surplus stores, they are only about $20 bucks). This allows
me to slide the monitor towards me and the position I use is where the
monitor almost scrapes my knuckles on the steering wheel (the monitor could
extend closer to me...over the top of the wheel if I wanted to do that).
Since you asked me this question, I just got the seat out and got into the
seating position I use.....slid the monitor into position and then measure
the distance from the screen (21") to my nose.....and it was 18.5 inches! I
was surprised....that's within a half inch of where I have the monitor in my
more upright driving position (cockpit) for NASCAR racing.
The other thing I do in both sim setups.....is use the "move screen"
function on the monitor to adjust the FOV "driving point" (that point down
the track where you concentrate your focus at all times....especially in
road racing). I make sure that point is slightly lower than perfectly
level....to my eyes. If it is higher than "level" to my eyes, it creates
eye fatigue and my brain doesn't think its realistic....so I lose a
substantial amount of emersion effect.
But as I said, this is all something of a personal taste and since I
spent....and spend a fair amount of time in real race cars, I try to make it
as close as possible to the real visual geometry as I can.....so brain
accepts that its in a race car and not sitting at a computer screen.
Truthfully, the whole discussion of driving view and driving position is
relative to only two things. 1) If your desire is to reproduce something
close to what real driver's experience, then you must reproduce something
close to the same visual geometry they experience. 2) Short of that, you
should choose a visual geometry that works for you, is comfortable and that
immerses you in your sim racing to best extent possible.........that is
totally personal and up to you and your own enjoyment....IMHO.
"I've found F1C a little deficient on tire squeal feedback.
Someone recommended importing tire sounds from another sim,
I'll check this out."
That is one of the first things I did a few days ago when I was installing
F1-2002 and tweaking it for my taste (cars, car sets, tracks, controller
settings, etc.). Since I do sound editing for engine sounds and "fx"
sounds, I just modified the existing tire squeal.......which EA may have
correct (never sat in a current year F1 car and listened to the tire
squeal......but it would surprise me if it is as "flat" as EA's sound).
This was a huge improvement I think, in the emersion factor for
F1-2002....at least for me (I had to make major changes to the driving FOV
as well). There's plenty of tire squeals around you can try.......go get a
few and see which ones work for you.
"I find this surprising . You have obviously studied this
and I don't doubt what you are saying. But it goes against
what I thought I knew."
That's kind of the point I have been trying to make a couple of times here.
Some things are the way they are....in a real race car but they surprise you
when you first experience them.....because they don't at first seem logical.
Therefore, if you sim race, but have never raced in a real race car, then
you are kind of chasing your tail aren't you.....trying to make assumptions
about what should be "real!" Some assumptions you make will be
correct.....and many will not be correct.
"Who's using these simulators you're building? What are
they using them for? When ECCI left the consumer market
several years ago they didn't stop making wheels. I was
wondering who they were selling to."
I can't tell you who.....by name, that's information protected by an NDA
with the customer. I will tell you the customer is a real-life race team,
the sim is being used (will be used...for the one we are building at the
moment) to improve the team driver's "race craft" experience and this is
being done in conjunction with a "racing coach" that gives instruction "in
person" and over an Internet connection while racing with the driver online
(private race). The "race coach" is employed by me, I also did most of his
training over the last two years (in sim racing). He is an accomplished
driver himself (has won a couple of ALMS races in the last 24 months).
We also have four sim racing "demo" units in the upstairs mezzanine portion
of our race shop. Two are open wheel sims, one is setup for stockcar sim
racing and the other is setup right now to simulate a Porsche GTSR
racing/testing. Local driver's based at Infineon rent seat time from me in
these simulators, and two "race teams" based at Infineon use them to do
driver evaluations (before putting prospective drivers into the seat of
their very expensive, real race cars).
Most of what ECCI is doing now is making "bullet-proof" racing sim controls
for "arcade" machine type demos and displays.....all non-pro racing stuff.
You can not destroy an ECCI controller and they are smooth. But, they are
way too bulky....and not very realistic in feel.
We custom fabricate all of our controllers, using as often as possible the
real racing pedals, wheel, etc.....from whatever racing car our simulation
is trying to reproduce/replicate. We just completed a set of pedals for the
current sim we are building to be delivered to this race team. This is not
something anyone in the sim racing community would be interested
in......believe me. These pedals are going to cost the race team (as part
of the sim they are buying) about $5,500 (and I'm not making much money on
them.....that's dang near my cost to fabricate them). The over-all price of
the sim will be close to $100K when completed.
Hope this answers most of your questions?
Regards,
Tom
Eldred
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