rec.autos.simulators

:)

-Larry

Mitch

Kendt

Yes....I did it first thing the day I installed NR003.  I race NR003 only in
my Winston Cup***pit sim.....so this altered cam is a requirement for it.
Send me an email message and I will send it to you (remember to remove the
"anti-spam" section in my email address when you hit the "reply" button).

TP

I think your comments, and those of Dave and Kendt, etc. all have merit and
really seem to point to the primary problem with the current "state of the
art" of our sim racing software/hardware.

This issue of "driving view" is going to continue until a couple of
"milestones" are reached in sim racing software and hardware.  And, it is my
belief that we are the ones that need to take the lead and do this.....the
"gaming industry" companies have no financial incentive to do it.

A.  We need to take the cockpit completely out of the sim software.  To be
replaced by real cockpits we sit in (depending on what sim we drive....that
could be a closed GT or Winston Cup style cockpit....or an open wheel "tub"
of some sort).  The telemetry data and dash instrument data from the sim
needs to be sent to and displayed by.....real live dash-board instruments or
digital LCD's like are used in most modern race cars.  MoteC and CSA and
many makers of these dash board displays would be more than happy to sell us
their products....I can promise you!  Can we afford them?  Hell no....not at
today's prices ($20K and up).  But, that does not negate the "need" for
this.....if we want our simulator experience to move to the next level.

B.  Only a small change from our current large screen monitors is needed (I
am speaking of the 21"....or 22" models).  The answer is not totally in
screen width, however.  Otherwise....sitting in front of a big screen TV or
even a 40" x 60" plasma screen would be the answer.....and IT IS NOT.  I
have done it.....tested it extensively.....and it does not do what you think
it will (explained below).  What we do need is a screen which wraps....is
curved so that objects at a distance from our nose.......down track......and
objects from a distance off to the left and right of our nose.......appear
the same size when they are the same distance away.  Currently, flat screens
(no matter how wide or large) can not do this.  It is the sim
software....graphics software where the limitation is I believe....not so
much in the hardware (monitors, TV's, etc.).

**Cockpit Driver's View in A Real Race Car**
Those of you that don't know me may not be aware that I was a real-world
race car driver.....race team owner, for more than 15 years.  I also
instructed for both SCCA and for the Dane Pitarressi Racing School.  I won
three Regional SCCA championships and drove in the ESCORT Endurance Series
(12 and 24hr endurance sportscar racing) for the BMW factory team for three
seasons.  All of this was back in the late 80's and early  90's.  I have
been actively sim racing since the late 90's.  None of this means crap as
per my driving skills which are no better than most of yours.  In fact, I
know a ton of sim racers who have never been in a real race car, who are
better drivers than I am.  But, I do know what the "driver's view" is like
from the cockpit of a real race car.....testing or in a race.  Most of
you.....who have never been in a race car.......are incorrect in many of
your assumptions of what this view is like......in what it looks like.  Even
though the vast majority of my racing experience is in sedan, or GT type
race cars......my experience as an SCCA racing instructor, and vintage
racing license instructor.....has allowed me to drive almost every type of
race car there is....or has been.  I have driven a modern Indy car (the
Porsche Indy car from the late 80's), two fairly modern F1 cars (95' year
Ferrari and a 94' year Arrows)....several 70's and 80's F1 cars, TransAm
cars, Winston Cup cars......etc.  I currently own a race shop next to
Huffaker Racing at Infineon raceway.....and I get out on the track usually
about once a month....testing something for one of the race teams located at
Infineon (Sears Point).

I say all of this only to point out that my "perspective" of what the
driving view is from the cockpit of a real race car.....is fairly accurate.

And, that is:

**Peripheral Vision**
In a GT or closed cockpit race car.....with helmet, side head braces....Hans
device....etc., it is almost zero!  Sitting at a dead stop....the peripheral
vision is probably less than 50% of what you have in a street car....without
all that gear on.  At race speeds.....your peripheral vision is only 20% of
what you have in a street car.  The worst is a Winston Cup car or a TransAm
car......the best is in any open wheel car.....but its still never better
than 50% of what you have in a street car.  At race speeds....with engine
vibration and the car shaking from contact with the track surface......only
your straight ahead vision is clear....your peripheral vision is limited to
recognition of colors only.....not object shape or size in much
detail.....at all.  With a 21" monitor....our racing sims currently (NR003
or F1-C or F1-2002) with a driving cam FOV of between 70 and 95 (or
so)....is very accurate to what you get in a real race car!  I would
say....its something more like 95% accurate (and you guys are talking like
it's something more like 50% accurate....that is just not correct).

**3D Vision**
3D vision is something you have very little of in a real race car......and
is NOT related to depth perception anyway.  And depth perception in a real
race car is extremely limited....almost non existent.....just like in our
sims.  I know that does not sound logical to those of you who have never
been in a race car.  But, maybe this explanation will help you understand:

At race speeds, the driving point of focus (depending on how fast you are
going) is anywhere from 20 to 30 feet in front of your car (at very low
speeds) to several hundred yards down track (at very high speeds).  The
human eye has very little 3D site....much past about 100 feet!  At race
speeds....most of the time your driving focus point is more than a 100 feet
in front of you.....and therefore during that entire time....you see in 2D
only!

This driving speed/driving focus point relationship totally screws with your
depth perception for objects which are nearby you.  Primarily that would be
other cars.....since all other objects nearby you are in your field of
vision for only micro-seconds (as you speed by them).  The other race
cars.....depending on your speed differential to them......tend to "float"
along near you.....like airplanes flying in formation....in flight.  You
can't really remove your focus from the distant "driving focus point" to
focus long enough on a nearby race car to really get much of your depth
perception to return to you......so...they appear in your conscious vision
field..."yes"...but they are more like flat, 2D floating objects.....not 3D,
depth perceptive objects....like most of you imagine them to be.

This is why it is so difficult for a real world race car driver to even read
an instrument reading on the dash instruments right in front of them.  If
you are lucky and on a track with long straight....you can take the two or
three seconds it takes to refocus your eyes on the dash (from the driving
point down track) to read maybe a tach....or an oil temp.....if the
needles/numbers are large and well contrasted.  Its a time verses "time to
focus" issue.  This is also why it is so very difficult during a pit stop to
come down from high speeds and hit your mark exactly.  The pro drivers we
see on TV every week.....make us think this is easy because you see them
very rarely miss their mark (pit stop marks).  Let me tell you.....it takes
a ton of experience and PRACTICE.....to be able to do that
consistently....and the pro drivers we see on TV have it.....and they make
it look easy.  Its not easy at all!

Overall, the visuals....and driver visual cues.....of our current racing
simulator hardware.....is very accurate.  Most of the time, you can't see
the road surface directly in front of you....even in open wheel cars!  You
can't see other cars around you with very much depth perception
either....and you can easily run into the back of a car in front of
you....who brakes a little earlier than you expected????  Doesn't this
describe our sims.....because I am describing being in a real race
car....not a simulator!

I hope a few of you may have a better appreciation of your racing simulator
hardware and equipment now.  It does a far better job of simulating racing
in a real-world race car than you imagine!

I do have an alternate driving view cam I designed for my Winston Cup
cockpit simulator I use for driving in NR003 (and a few of the sports car
sims).  It is not just an altered driving view cam....but also altered
cockpit graphics and combined, its a rather large file.  If somebody wants
to try it....and many on r.a.s. have already used it for some time (I've
been doing this cam for all Papy sims since the N3 days)....email me and I
will send you the zip package.  Mind you, you'll have to alter your cockpit
graphics (so if you have special cockpits....these files will screw that
up).

Take car and much regards,

Tom

<Snip Most Excellent Post>

Well Said...

Jay In AZ

    It's not just the ability to see more of the track.  I
think the images fed to the peripheral vision also come in
under the conscious in a way that makes for a very
convincing illusion of physically movement through the virtual
world.

    Matrox has a card that drives 3 displays, and does work
with some sims.  I haven't heard that Matrox can compete
with ATI and Nvidia in terms of 3D graphics performance.
I've seen posts of people talking about getting this card
and three monitors setup, but I haven't read any posts
describing the experience of racing with this equipment.

read more »

First of all, "snipping" the post when you have it in your reply.....is just
fine.  The original post is on display for all to read at the top of the
string.  In fact, you don't even need to "include the original post" in your
reply, unless you intend to interlineate it (as you did).

The tri-monitor display set up you refer to doesn't work.  At least, it
doesn't add anything to your driving experience.  Your "intuition" about
that.....that it would add to your sim experience, is just not correct.
I've experimented with it, and trust me when I say, "If it worked well we
would be using it."  Because, most of the stuff we build "cost" is not an
issue.  We've put real-world drivers in a sim with a tri-monitor
display.....real-world drivers with sim racing experience and real-drivers
without any sim racing experience.....and both groups say basically the same
thing, "The three monitors doesn't make the simulation experience any more
real than it is with one center monitor."  This is primarily because your
brain (in a real race car or in a sim) only pays attention to the "driver's
focus point"....several hundred feet down track (at full race
speed)...directly in front of you.  It ignores all the peripheral images
flashing by.  That is not the case in a flight simulation, where the pilot
rarely pays attention to only the straight ahead focus point.  You don't fly
an airplane the way you race a race car.....they are two totally different
"hand-eye coordination" acts.....not related in any way.  Your head and eye
movement in an airplane is not restricted like it is in a race car, and your
"focus of attention" is free to wander about the sky.  That isn't the case
in a race car where you are barely free to take your eyes off your "focus
point" long enough to look at your gauges!

G-Force is another issue that is mostly over-rated by non race car driving
sim racers.  Yes, there is some "back of the seat" feel....that is provided
by g-force in a real race car that is missing in a sim.  But it is not
something that is tough for the brain to deal with when its missing from the
simulation experience.  What I mean is, it doesn't cause our brains to
"discount" the whole experience as unrealistic.  Here's why (and this comes
primarily from some research that NASA did early on in training the
astronauts in simulators):

Our brains are very good a creating a simulated environment for us.....when
we do tasks in a simulator (fly, race, etc.).  Let's say there are 10
elements, or "inputs" of data.....that we receive when racing in a real race
car.  10 categories of data/input to our brains, like:  Sight (visuals),
sound, smell, g-force, vibration, etc.  If you put the brain into a
simulated environment that does 5 to 7 of those really well (does them well
enough to be believable by our brain as real), then the brain helps us out
and starts filling in the missing items!  However, if we put our brain into
a simulator environment that does 5 to 7 things really well, but it does the
8th thing really badly (like g-forces that are not timed properly to the
visual event...and I mean the timing has to be dead on perfect....not off by
a milli-second because our brains can tell when it is), then the brain will
actually discount and discard all the really good things and say...."Nope,
this whole experience is not realistic!"

This is why we don't use force feedback controllers.  They are fun, but the
timing is off....in even the best of them.  This "timing" is not a function
of the FF controller, but more of the sim software that triggers the FF
events.  I would love to use it.....show me a sim program that does the
timing right....and we'll start using them.  In the meantime, we use "sound
generated vibration" to accomplish something of the same thing.

Racing from the nose cam:  I think its fun, and sometimes I do it just to
have fun with it.  But, it is not realistic and while it gives you an
illusion of speed.....its not an illusion of speed that you get from racing
in a real racing car.  It's not even close!

In a real race car, the driver has input as to how hard he's working the
tires comes from two sensory inputs:

1.  Sound.....this represents about 90% of the sensory input he relies on.
Our sims do an excellent job of this and if set right, our brains totally
believe the tire squeal they hear in our simulators.

2.  Smell......this fills in only about 10% of the sensor input necessary to
inform the driver of tire abuse.  Actually, our sims could easily do smell
simulation and there was a unit on the market three years ago that did this
very well (for not a whole lot of money).  It used these little test tube
like canisters, that atomized a micro-amount of scent oil into the
air....just briefly.  The "demo" that came with the unit was totally
cool.....but no game manufactures wrote the code into their games....so you
never got to actually use it.  If remember (and maybe some others on r.a.s.
remember this little device.....you could buy it at CompUSA.....it did
smoke, burning rubber, gun powder (can't remember what all).  But, it was
ahead of its time and the company making those units went out of business.

G-force virtually has nothing to do with telling you how hard you are
working the tires.  Of course, you'll feel the slip angles increase as the
tire grip fades.....but you can pick that up visually very easily.

As to your last couple of questions.......I don't drive online sims much any
more.  I wish I could, but I don't have the time to do it, particularly I
don't have the time to compete in regular league racing because my work
schedule isn't "regular" and I don't have the time to put the practice hours
in that a good sim racing league requires.  I really miss it though!

I'm asking questions about F1-2002 (and soon, about F1-C) because I am
needing to make a decision which one of those I'm going to use as the
software base (and then modify) for a customer simulator we are currently
building and are about to deliver (in about a month).  In order to make that
decision, I need to get both of those sims up and running with all the
"tweaks, bells and whistles".....so I can make an intelligent decision about
which one I want to use for our customer simulator software.  That's the
reason for the questions, I've had neither of those sims installed (though
I've owned both of them ever since they were released).  Again, this is kind
of a "no time for fun sim racing" story....which I'll try not to whine about
too much!  LOL.....

So Larry, I guess what I'm trying to tell you is that the current sim racing
software and hardware we have right now, even on a desktop sim rig.....is
much more realistic than you are giving it credit to be.  Stop looking for
some off-the-wall thing that will make it "real".....because frankly, your
brain doesn't even know what is real if you've not spent a considerable
amount of seat time in a real race car.

Here's the cheapest thing you all can do to "double" the emersion factor for
your simulators right now.  And you can go do this tomorrow for about $10
bucks!  Go to a crafts store and buy two sheets of black foam board and a
roll of black photographic tape!  Cover the face of your monitor with the
black photographic tape (its a nice flat black) and then use the rest of it
to tape together a screen shroud......and enclosed "box" around your
monitor.  It should extend out about 18 to 20 inches.....and when you sim
race, make sure your head is almost inside the very end of the box.  This
will block out all visual cues that you are sitting at a computer
monitor.....and will actually suck your brain right into the screen!  Once
your brain is sucked in.......it will be much more believable that you are
in a real race car.  Try it......bet you $100 you will improve your
"personal best lap times" at all your favorite tracks if you'll go spend $10
bucks and build yourself a screen shroud!

Want to do something even more "emersion getting" to your brain?  Add this
to your new "screen shroud" sim rig:  Go to a local circle track race shop.
Buy yourself a Kirkey aluminum drag racing seat (drag racing seats don't
have the wrap around your mid-section extensions like the circle track or
road racing seats do....and they are really cheap).....for about $90
bucks....with a seat cover.  Stop by your local junk office store and buy a
cheap/used office chair.  Take the top of the office chair off and throw it
away....save the base.  Put your new and totally cool Kirkey racing seat on
the office chair base.....and bingo.....you have a cool "racing seat" office
chair....that doubles as a great sim racing seat!  Your brain will like the
way it feels.....when you are sim racing (and your friends with think you
are really cool......or a little crazy....perhaps a little of both).

Ask around here in r.a.s. about who has done this type of thing, or who has
built themselves a little "racing rig cockpit and/or maybe a race frame
rig".....and what it did for their sim racing experience....how much it
increased their "emersion factor" and fun in their sim racing hobby!  I bet
you won't find anyone who will say it was a waste of time or money!

You don't need to spend a ton of money to do some little things that will
help your brain to stop thinking its sitting at a computer.....and start
thinking its sitting in a race car!

Have fun with it,

Tom

What it does add is the capability to know where other traffic is -
especially at starts. Whether that peripheral vision is unrealistic I am
unsure, but drivers certainly do turn their heads and any mechanism for look
left/right on a single screen has never worked for me.

It certainly does add a lot to side by side racing on road courses - without
the two drivers know the other is there but not sure exactly where - often
leading to an unrealisticly slow progress (driver 1 runs wide anticipating a
pass, driver 2 hangs back waiting for driver 1 to turn in.

Maybe it simply makes up for the lack of experience but it certainly would
prevent a lot of T1 accidents!

Great post btw Tom. I once drove an F2000 and my overriding experience with
just a few other cars around the track and having one spinning well over a
hundred yards in front of me leaving me to decide which way to go whilst
watching another behind me in a small vibrating mirror was how do these guys
manage with cars all around them especially at the starts.

Cheers
Tony

For me the GPL engine has provided the most feel. Others seem somehow dead
in comparison. The GPL engine was such a significant step forward thet it
felt streets ahead of the competition from lap 1. Perhaps I am now so
accustomed to it that different programming doesn't feel right (the black
art element) even though the physics may be modelled as well or even better.
This isn't through a lack of effort with other sims and a lot of trial and
error with EA controller settings!

Either another significant step with a sim engine and/or peripherals needs
to happen - or a magic controller setting found for my brain to provide the
feel I yearn for the EA series and mods.

Cheers
Tony

Sean

Tom Pabst :

        Yes. From day one I was all for FF. I wanted experience. But, after
I read your post, I tried it without FF. And, you know what? I really felt
everything much more accurate than with FF. You are apsolutely right. I have
better feeling without FF than with it. Visual clues make G-forces much more
real than FF. Thanks for that.
        And you know what else? Now I don't need 3 monitors anymore to
correct my experience. Now this one is enough. But, I'll miss some of the
effects I had with FF (especially a twitch when you change gear). I had some
good times with FF.
        But, now I have a problem. I don't think my Thrustmaster FF GT is
adequate for non-FF driving. With what to replace it? -- Mario