rec.autos.simulators

Eldred
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Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions'  blazing 2001 start of 0-12???
Currently at 0-10 as of April13th...stay tuned...
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Steve Levett

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I suppose the "answer" would have something to do with what you were seeking
from the racing sims you run.  Are you "simulating" real-world
racing.....for your fun and enjoyment?  Or, are you just trying to go as
fast as physically possible....with no limitations as to the number of laps
or seat time (or crashes)?  Both are fun and enjoyable activities.....and to
some extent, most of the sim community probably does "a little of both."

If you are only interested in "winning" in online racing.....then you
probably are not going to have as much "fun" with your sims as you'd expect.
I think it would be safe to say, "There will always be someone who has more
laps, more seat-time...and more tweaking to their setup.....on any given
track....than you, and therefore always faster."  Does that mean that person
will always win?  No.  But in the typical online racing we have today.....a
few drivers essentially running around solo in short (relatively short
compared to 100% races) online races (league racing would be the
exception).....its probably going to boil down to the fastest driver nearly
always winning.  Whereas, in real-life racing.....the fastest driver wins
less than 50% of the time.  Remember, the fastest driver is not always the
best racecar driver.....because being "fast" is only one element of around
10.....that contribute to winning races consistently.

In sim racing, I suppose it would be safe to say that each track/racing
sim.....has a physical *limit* to the absolute fastest you could traverse
the circuit....based on the physics model of the car, setup parameters, etc.
Some sim drivers enjoy trying to find out what that is......others want to
race other cars/drivers, where "fast" is only part of the formula.

In NASCAR 2002, you might want to have some fun and set up a scenario that
would be similar to a rookie NASCAR driver/team.  This will "test" your
racecar driving, racecar setup adjusting and "race-craft" skills:
    1.  Go to a track you have never run before.....start with the "easy"
setup.  This would be equivalent to a rookie NASCAR driver with a rookie
crew chief....showing up at a track for the first time.......and your
starting setup is something kind of made up of common sense and a few
"notes" borrowed from another team or the crew chief's past experience on
another team with a different car.....i.e., better than nothing...but not by
much!
    2.  Set your practice sessions to be the exact equivalent of what a
Winston Cup team gets for track time....at the same race track (in
real-life) on a Winston Cup race weekend.
    3.  Run the practice sessions, qualifying and 100% race.  Where did you
finish?
    4.  Now....after a "rest period".....go do it all again.  Now, where did
you finish?  Better?  If so, then you learned something that you applied in
the second race.  If not, well....maybe "luck" had more to do with your
finish than "skill and knowledge"....try it again.  And again, and again!

[Note:  This may be different for others, and I have not "tested" this at
all of the WC tracks in N2K2 as of yet.  So, with that caveat in mind, I
have found that setting the AI strength at 90% generally is about right.  On
a new track, on "easy" I will be running in the back of the pack (with the
AI at 90%)....and improve over the course of the simulated "race weekend"
where I'm running around middle pack in practice.....first race weekend.
After doing this a few times at the same track, I end up pretty solidly in
the top-ten.  I then take a look at what the real-world drivers are running
at the same track....and in some cases adjust the AI slider a little bit
after that.....to get the AI running as close to the same spread of lap
times as the real-world cup cars.  That's not always totally possible to
do....but its close most of the time.]

I think you'll see that as you continue to repeat this scenario at the same
track, your ability to finish higher and higher in the actual race should
improve.  Now do this for all of the Winston Cup tracks....and you'll have
an idea what driver experience and race team experience means in real-world
Winston Cup racing.  Or any other form of racing for that matter.

In general, I find that on the tracks in N2K2 that I have a lot of
"race-weekend experience" like I've described above, I tend to do much
better in online races at those tracks than the ones I don't have this
experience built up at.  Most of the time I manage to finish in the top10%
of the number of drivers I'm racing online.....on occasion, I am the fastest
driver on the track and win.  But this is only on tracks where I've been
doing this "weekend race scenario" a lot.  On other tracks, I usually get my
***kicked in online races.

I hope this gives you some "food for thought" about your question.  A very
good one, IMHO.

Regards,

Tom

I need to run enough laps at a track to be able to drive it without
thinking about the track itself, to a point where driving the particular
track is second nature to me

It's at this point I start to make some real improvements in my lap
times

Take WG (I only drive road courses), I currently have about 100 laps or
so there, and it's just now that I'm really getting to grips with the
car and the subtle things that will improve my lap times

Currently in the low 1:17's with what is basically the "fast" setup,
which is not a setup that I particularly enjoy to drive, but it's only
now that I'm comfortable enough with the car and the track to make setup
changes that makes sense, and yes, even if I'd stick to the "fast" setup
I'd improve my lap times, not to mention that I'll be a much safer
driver with other cars on the track when I don't have to concentrate on
the driving itself

This is one of the reasons I don't do much oval racing, it's so damn
boring pounding around the track to find that little bit extra speed or
improve the tire wear, I actually enjoy racing on some of the tracks,
it's practicing them that kills my enjoyment, compared to a road course
where I can practice for hours....:-)

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

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--Chuck Jones (1912-2002)--

Eldred
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Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...

Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions'  blazing 2001 start of 0-12???
Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie
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Winning isn't my only interest, but it would be NICE...  If I run 1000 laps and
I'm still 5 seconds slower than someone who's only done 50, something is wrong
there.

Yes, "fast" is part of the formula.  But the problem is this.  Say someone's PB
is 8-10 seconds faster than me at a given track.  Even if he goes at 90% during
a race and slows by 5 seconds, the times he runs are still faster than I've
EVER gone there.  I need to find a way to get inside of his 90% time.  If
someone is running at only 90%, they shouldn't be falling off the track, as
they are well within their 'limits'.  So that means that I can't race with
anyone - they're all faster, and I just end up driving around by myself.  Yes,
part of it is an ego thing, but that's just BORING...

Thank you.

Eldred
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Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...

Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions'  blazing 2001 start of 0-12???
Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie
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MS does how many  laps each year at a particular track before a race? Along
with not having any physical or monetary consequences, I think the ability
to do unlimited laps in practice is the single biggest reason why sim racing
is so far from the real thing. I don't know how some people can sit down and
do all those laps, I get a headache and very bored if I do too many.

100 laps spread apart over a few days should be enough on most tracks for me
to get used to a track and discover it's subtelities. I always do better if
I do a short session of practice and then come back to it later for a little
more.

From reading your posts over time, I really wonder if you have your
controller set up correctly for whatever sim you're running. I know you were
frustrated with F2001 for that reason. I'm wondering with N2002, what
controller do you use, do you use left foot braking, and what exactly is
your linear/non-linear setting? Having the controller set up correctly, and
keeping the fps above at least 35 at all times are extremely important.

David G Fisher

That's an interesting reply because that touches on something I wanted
to add to this post.  First, you guys know that I am pretty new at sim
racing so I don't really know what it takes to go fast and do it
consistently.  Keep that in mind as you read what I have to say.  I
practiced and later taught Karate for about a ten year period.  The
Grand Master that I trained under was a relatively scientific minded
fellow, at least in comparison to his peers, and had studied a lot over
the years about different training methods, human physiology, etc.  He
often talked about how the goal was to be able to execute perfect
techniques without any more mental effort than it takes to walk, and how
this was achieved through "muscle memory".  Muscle memory meant
practicing a technique endlessly until you didn't have to think about it
anymore to do it.  In my own studies since then I now tend to think that
what he was referring to was exactly what you said above, burning it
into the subconscious so that it does not require conscious attention to
execute a technique.  And that's exactly why I think it IS important.
One Karate teacher from another school once said that he believes it
takes 1000 correct repetitions of a technique to master it.  His
defintion of mastering it was essentially the same as my own teacher's
idea of being able to execute it perfectly without conscious thought.
This is the cornerstone of Asian martial arts philosophy (actually the
cornerstone of all Asian arts in general), and the reason why the Asian
martial arts have developed such a formidable reputation over the years.
It is also essentially the same training philosophy that top athletes in
many other physical disciplines have learned.  And I think it applies to
racing too.  Why?  Because if you have to think about where you are on
the track, you aren't thinking about the cars around you.  Performance
in any competition is improved when the physical skills are relegated to
the subconscious mind, leaving the conscious mind free to attend to
strategy and tactics.  An example from the martial arts again - there
are jumping and spinning kicks that are usually not taught to beginners
because they are slow and difficult to perform.  My instructor started
teaching us right away, because he wanted us to have been practicing
them from the start.  Because of this, by the time most of us had been
there five years or so, we could toss out a perfectly good jump spinning
kick in the middle of a match and make it stick.  We had the speed, and
we didn't have to think about it.  Back to racing - I have a problem
with the Esses at the Glen.  GPL, NASCAR Heat, NR2002, doesn't matter, I
suck at them.  I can sometimes get a good exit, but not consistently.
And this is with nobody else on the track.  If I am approaching the
Esses and traffic conditions force me to enter in a manner I am not used
to, what am I going to do?  I can hardly even make it when I am on the
right line.  Trying to concentrate on traffic and the track and figure
out what to do in an unexpected situation is too much, I'm just boned in
a situation like that.  This is where I think thousands of repetitions
would help.  If I had gone through the Esses so many times that I could
do it with my eyes shut, I could just worry about the surrounding
traffic and leave the driving to my subconsciousness.  I can't prove
that that principle applies to racing because I haven't been at it long
enough, but it certainly applies to everything else that I have ever
tried so I believe it does apply to racing also.  And there have been
comments from racers in this NG that during a real race you don't time
to think, you are pretty much relying on instinct.  Instinct,
subconsciousness, call it whatever you want, the less you have to
consciously think about a physical task the less likely you are to***
it up, and the freer you are to concentrate on other things.

My two cents again.  Damn that was a long post.  Sorry.  ;o)

I don't know how you'd make a karate simulator, but if a technique in real
life took 1,000 repetitions to master, and in the sim there were people who
practiced it 500,000 times, then we'd have the same situation as in auto
sims.

BTW, I thought you were a veteran sim racer. :-)

David G Fisher

As a language teacher, I like to annoy my students by passing on broad and
vacant learning principles.  It's one of the liberties you gain as a
teacher, I guess.  One such nugget of wisdom is that 'practice does NOT make
perfect'....permanent, maybe, but not perfect.  If you unknowingly repeat a
mistake again and again...you're only reinforcing the mistake.  In order to
improve, you first need to be aware that you are even making mistakes and
then you need the proper tools/knowledge to know how to go about fixing
them.  Without that conscious reflection and feedback in the loop, mere
repetition might well be doing more harm than good.  So after a certain
point, I'd question the advice to 'just drive more laps'.

I guess the only thing I can say in favor of mere repetition after the point
where you've learned a track well is that sometimes you just get lucky.
When you're just running around a track again and again with no particular
goal or strategy, you sometimes accidentally stumble upon something that
makes you faster.  Something you didn't even intend to do.  If you have the
ability to notice that discovery and can repeat it...that process of happy
accidents might pay dividends bit by bit over time.  But it seems an awfully
inefficient way to go about getting faster, particularly when there are
principles behind WHY certain things make you faster and slower.

(Err...lecture over.... my students hate it when I sermonize, too :-)

my guess (somewhat shorter) : you wont drive much faster from 100 laps
experience to 1000 laps,  but you will be able to drive much much more
consistent, driving fast *all* the time .. very few mistakes ...

when you think you know the track, you always find some more things to learn,
breaking point, approching the corner ... I had one sim I knew the tracks inside
out, I can tell you, in the end you dont even concentrate any more, you just
know exactly what to do, and I guess this is what you lack having not enough
'tracktime'

no offence at all, but it takes quite some time, but don't forget a car setup
makes the first difference

rgds,
Tony

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Yes.  This is a proven technique for mastering any physical activity.

I totally agree.  You only have so much attention you can pay to the
world around you.  If you're thinking about driving, you can't think
about racing.

Again, I agree.  I'd be willing to say it has been proven, if only by
intuition.

And, once you learn the basic muscle movements, you can extrapolate a
lot of information to new situations.  If you spend 1000 laps at
California, and then go to Michigan (or any other long oval for that
matter) for the first time, you will have a BIG head start on somebody
who has never raced either track.

I also think it takes longer than might be expected to pick up a sim
track because of lack of feedback from the sim environment.  Also, the
asymetrical setups changing even slightly from track to track tend to
confuse folks a great deal.

I don't think you can necessarily set an absolute number of reps where
muscle memory has been engrained.  But for a person new to a
particular "motion", be it karate or simulated pedal-dancing, I'd say
1000 is a good figure to shoot for.

DGF, Would you rather race against someone who has driven 1000 laps or
100?

Here's something else:  Tire wear makes a big difference on how a car
will drive over time.  100 laps is just getting into a long green run
at some shorter tracks.  If someone spends 200 laps running 20 lap
sprints, what will happen the first time they get into a 50 lap green
flag run where signifigant tire wear and weight shift is a new
concern?

not pissed,
Gerald

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...

Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions'  blazing 2001 start of 0-12???
Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.