rec.autos.simulators

by **jason moy** » Sat, 20 Apr 2002 01:48:07

How many laps has MS run in his entire career to get to the point
where his skills are as refined as they are now?

I think the key in any sim is to run thousands of laps period. After
thousands of laps in GPL I have no problems picking up N4 or N2002 and
immediately going online and being a top car even though I almost
never race them except for my weekly league race. I've never actually
managed to get my controller calibrated to my liking in F1 2001 and I
can still smoke the AI at 100% without much effort. I'm certainly no
special talent or an alien, I've just spent tons of time in older sims
and GPL.

As far as laps at a particular track, I'd say that it should take
about 15 minutes to learn a track and about 2 hours to start putting
in some respectable times. Which isn't very long compared to how much
testing real drivers put in. Race experience means more than testing
time anyway, and that is where most real drivers have their thousands
of laps at each track. I know in terms of simming I've learned more
by racing on VROC and in leagues than I have by running a million solo
laps or looking at Huttu's replays.

In terms of NASCAR, even someone like Kevin Harvick has done thousands
of laps at each track. This year alone NASCAR will put in 1000 laps
at some tracks, not counting testing, qualifying, and warmup.

Jason

by **Marc Fraio** » Sat, 20 Apr 2002 02:54:49

Real racing is a kid's game too. Does Kimi Raikkonen even shave yet?

Marc

by **Haqsa** » Sat, 20 Apr 2002 08:49:16

I'm starting to think David is actually on the right track about your
controller. I know you have a really good wheel, but IIRC you are using
default setups, and you are also using very little steering linearity.
The combined effect of this is that even though it makes you very smooth
you will have no ability to make the kind of sharp, quick steering
corrections that can be necessary when you are right on the edge. I
really think you should try using 100% linear steering, and change your
setup to use less than 16:1 steering ratio (in GPL). And not just for a
few minutes, but try it for a few days, maybe even a week. You will
crash more initially because it takes a while to get used to faster
steering. But after you do get used to it, it becomes so much easier to
rescue a sliding car, you will be amazed. But don't take my word for
it, I would like to hear from some of the more experienced people. From
the setups I have looked at and the comments people have made in this
newsgroup, I believe what I have just told you is something that all the
fast guys are doing, but I would like to hear it from them and I'm sure
you would too.

Lauridsen"

> >You don't have to take the corner that way,. I think you make it
harder on
> >yourself. I know this is just one, or rather two corners, and you
cannot
> >aply this at all of them. I don?t brake while turning ( before the
haipin at
> >Rouen that is). I used to do that, but know I'm actually on the gas
through
> >the bend before instead, and that setles the car down. Brake a little
before
> >the bend, turn in early get on the gas to settle the car down and
then brake
> >hard when you go straigt again. Of course on the gas doesn't mean
full
> >throtle. ;-) This way, the corner becomes less of a gamble. Much less
> >actually, because I have much better control. I guess if you are not
having
> >trouble doing it your way consistantly, it means you are losing a lot
of
> >time.

> Remember what I said about not being able to judge speed in the slow
corners?
> If I'm on the gas at all in the lefthander, I can't make the hairpin.
If I'm
> on the brakes, I spin out. Coasting seems to be the only way of
making the
> turn more than 60% of the time.

> >I havn't actually seen any of your replays, but heard you have a
reputation
> >of being very very smooth (and not so fast, but pretty consistant)
Maybe
> >its time you put a little "screech" in the tires ?

> If my tires are screeching there, it means I'm backwards heading
towards the
> fence. I know what you mean for other turns, though. I just haven't
been able
> to do it. If my tires are squealing, it's because I'm out of control.
I
> haven't been able to figure out 'controlled sliding'. :(

> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
> GPLRank - under construction...

> Okay, so the Detroit Tigers finally won a game. But is 1-11 *really*
something
> to get e***d over...?
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Andre Warrin** » Sat, 20 Apr 2002 17:36:40

Haqsau is very right here Eldred.. (allmost) full linearity is a must,
I use something like 98% (100% is juuuust too sensitive for me) and I
use much lower steering ratios. On most tracks I use 12:1, on tracks
with hairpins like Mexico and Rouen I use something like 9:1.

Very important: turn OFF the steering hack in the core.ini!
With the hack on (default) the ratio changes at a certain speed so you
can take hairpins more easily. But this is unnatural, and you don't
feel 100% in control of the car with the hack on.

As Hasqau says, in the beginning it will feel very hard to control
with these settings, maybe you even need more than one week to adapt
to this, but in the end you WILL have more control over the car once
you get used to it.

I must add that I have a Momo with a 270degree steering angle, so
maybe a ratio of 9:1 is a tad too hard to handle on an 180degree
wheel. Start with 12:1, and once you get used to that try to lower it
step by step. Untill then, avoid Mexico and Monaco :)

------------------------

Something else to make this post a Pabst-length post:
My pb at Monza is 27:1. No matter how hard I tried, I can't get any
lower than that. A friend of mine recently broke the 27 range and did
a 26.9. A 26 at Monza (and a sub8 at the Ring) are my two main goals
in GPL.
Last night I spent more than an hour comparing his and my replays in
GPLRA. Up untill the entry to Para were are both exactly fast, in one
replay I'm even 2/10ths faster than him. But I lose about half a
second in the Para!

We both drive the same line through Para, yet he could keep more speed
in the corner and have a much better exit. I did literally thousands
of laps on Monza, so more practice would simply be useless. I had to
understand WHY he was faster in the Para.

After comparing a lot of replays in GPLRA, and especially focussing on
the graphs, I finally more or less understood what he was doing
differently than me. Now I have to focus on this 'new' driving style
in the para, and it will take me a while to get the hang of that.

What also helped me btw was merging mine and his replay with Spygirl,
and making notes of how much speed we were both carrying at different
parts of the Para corner.

The point of this all is that practice is good untill a certain
amount, and when you are at the point where you will not get faster,
where you have no idea where to focus, practice doesn't help much
more. Then it's time to try to understand WHY other people are faster
and HOW, so you get new targets/techniques to focus on.

As allways, good luck and USE GPLRA :)

Andre

by **Eldre** » Sat, 20 Apr 2002 21:16:13

>I'm starting to think David is actually on the right track about your
>controller. I know you have a really good wheel, but IIRC you are using
>default setups, and you are also using very little steering linearity.
>The combined effect of this is that even though it makes you very smooth
>you will have no ability to make the kind of sharp, quick steering
>corrections that can be necessary when you are right on the edge. I
>really think you should try using 100% linear steering, and change your
>setup to use less than 16:1 steering ratio (in GPL). And not just for a
>few minutes, but try it for a few days, maybe even a week. You will
>crash more initially because it takes a while to get used to faster
>steering. But after you do get used to it, it becomes so much easier to
>rescue a sliding car, you will be amazed.

Currently my steering in GPL is set to under the "n" in linearity. Steering
ratio in most setups are 16:1 or higher. If I go any higher on the linearity
or lower on the steering ratio I end up zigzagging in the straights. And even
with THOSE settings, I keep overcorrecting in slides. Example: driving on an
oval, The car steps out, I correct, and go head-on into the wall. Same thing
occasionally happens on road courses, but the oval track example is the easiest
to describe. I'm not using the default setups, though. I only mentioned in
another thread that the default setups are more than capable of matching the
benchmark laps.

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...

Okay, so the Detroit Tigers finally won a game. But is 1-11 *really* something
to get e***d over...?
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Joachim Trens** » Sun, 21 Apr 2002 00:16:21

Something else to try if someone isn't happy with the wheel could be to turn
linearity to 0% before calibrating. It made a difference on my system.
Sounds a bit like UFO-hunting, but I think it's true.

Achim

> >really think you should try using 100% linear steering, and change your
> >setup to use less than 16:1 steering ratio (in GPL). And not just for a
> >few minutes, but try it for a few days, maybe even a week. You will
> >crash more initially because it takes a while to get used to faster
> >steering. But after you do get used to it, it becomes so much easier to
> >rescue a sliding car, you will be amazed.

> Haqsau is very right here Eldred.. (allmost) full linearity is a must,
> I use something like 98% (100% is juuuust too sensitive for me) and I
> use much lower steering ratios. On most tracks I use 12:1, on tracks
> with hairpins like Mexico and Rouen I use something like 9:1.

> Very important: turn OFF the steering hack in the core.ini!
> With the hack on (default) the ratio changes at a certain speed so you
> can take hairpins more easily. But this is unnatural, and you don't
> feel 100% in control of the car with the hack on.

> As Hasqau says, in the beginning it will feel very hard to control
> with these settings, maybe you even need more than one week to adapt
> to this, but in the end you WILL have more control over the car once
> you get used to it.

> I must add that I have a Momo with a 270degree steering angle, so
> maybe a ratio of 9:1 is a tad too hard to handle on an 180degree
> wheel. Start with 12:1, and once you get used to that try to lower it
> step by step. Untill then, avoid Mexico and Monaco :)

> ------------------------

> Something else to make this post a Pabst-length post:
> My pb at Monza is 27:1. No matter how hard I tried, I can't get any
> lower than that. A friend of mine recently broke the 27 range and did
> a 26.9. A 26 at Monza (and a sub8 at the Ring) are my two main goals
> in GPL.
> Last night I spent more than an hour comparing his and my replays in
> GPLRA. Up untill the entry to Para were are both exactly fast, in one
> replay I'm even 2/10ths faster than him. But I lose about half a
> second in the Para!

> We both drive the same line through Para, yet he could keep more speed
> in the corner and have a much better exit. I did literally thousands
> of laps on Monza, so more practice would simply be useless. I had to
> understand WHY he was faster in the Para.

> After comparing a lot of replays in GPLRA, and especially focussing on
> the graphs, I finally more or less understood what he was doing
> differently than me. Now I have to focus on this 'new' driving style
> in the para, and it will take me a while to get the hang of that.

> What also helped me btw was merging mine and his replay with Spygirl,
> and making notes of how much speed we were both carrying at different
> parts of the Para corner.

> The point of this all is that practice is good untill a certain
> amount, and when you are at the point where you will not get faster,
> where you have no idea where to focus, practice doesn't help much
> more. Then it's time to try to understand WHY other people are faster
> and HOW, so you get new targets/techniques to focus on.

> As allways, good luck and USE GPLRA :)

> Andre

by **Andre Warrin** » Sat, 20 Apr 2002 21:29:31

I don't know the wheel you use, have you ever tried GPL with a
high-quality wheel? You do need some precise equipment for the
settings I mentioned.

Andre

by **Goy Larse** » Sat, 20 Apr 2002 22:47:09

> >Currently my steering in GPL is set to under the "n" in linearity. Steering
> >ratio in most setups are 16:1 or higher. If I go any higher on the linearity
> >or lower on the steering ratio I end up zigzagging in the straights. And even
> >with THOSE settings, I keep overcorrecting in slides. Example: driving on an

> I don't know the wheel you use, have you ever tried GPL with a
> high-quality wheel? You do need some precise equipment for the
> settings I mentioned.

And here goes Andre bragging about his Momo wheel again, poor Eldred is
left sitting there with his obsolete TSW.......

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels"
--Groucho Marx--

by **Andre Warrin** » Sat, 20 Apr 2002 23:54:39

>And here goes Andre bragging about his Momo wheel again, poor Eldred is
>left sitting there with his obsolete TSW.......

Smartass :)
I hope it was obvious that that was not the way I meant it :)
With the GPL settings I gave the steering becomes much more twitchy,
so if you have a bad controller of dirty pots the settings may be too
twitchy to use.

Andre

PS Did I mention that I have a Logitech Momo(Tm)?

by **Goy Larse** » Sun, 21 Apr 2002 01:18:20

> >And here goes Andre bragging about his Momo wheel again, poor Eldred is
> >left sitting there with his obsolete TSW.......

> Smartass :)

Not bad for a "Swede" eh ?

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

"A man is only as old as the woman he feels"
--Groucho Marx--

by **Jon Anderse** » Sun, 21 Apr 2002 01:47:37

Remember that both gas and brakes are analogue controllers. Try *not* to let
go of the brake at the left hander prior to the haripin. Add some gas
instead while still pressing the brakes. Stability will improve.

Go on the gas early at the exit of the hairpin, but don't press the pedal to
the metal immediately. If the wheel spins, then you are pressing the gas
pedal too hard. Change gears instead of going off the gas. Short shift
before the next right hander. It feels slow, but is fast.

Braking late isn't as important as being able to go on the gas early.

Jon Andersen

by **Jon Anderse** » Sun, 21 Apr 2002 01:53:59

I have seen some replays of Eldred. He drove like he actually had paid for
the car. He was smooth. No screeching anywhere.

Screeching tires aren't necesserily fast, but Eldred would probably benefit
from driving closer to the edge of screeching tires.

Jon Andersen

by **Eldre** » Sun, 21 Apr 2002 04:50:02

>>Currently my steering in GPL is set to under the "n" in linearity. Steering
>>ratio in most setups are 16:1 or higher. If I go any higher on the
>linearity
>>or lower on the steering ratio I end up zigzagging in the straights. And
>even
>>with THOSE settings, I keep overcorrecting in slides. Example: driving on
>an

>I don't know the wheel you use, have you ever tried GPL with a
>high-quality wheel? You do need some precise equipment for the
>settings I mentioned.

TWS2mod, which *I* consided high-quality, anyway.<g> It's got about a 270
degree arc, also.

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure
*** cancer. If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a
donation. Thank you.

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

by **Tony Rickar** » Sun, 21 Apr 2002 05:36:42

The replays of Eldred.

He sounds like some mythical being. He truly is the legend of GPL.

In a couple of thousand years scientists will carbon date the replays and
discover they weren't from 1967 and pronounce the replays of Eldred as a fake
created in the early 21st century...

by **Andre Warring** » Sun, 21 Apr 2002 06:20:17

Ok, I was just asking to figure out why your car is getting
uncontrolable with full linearity settings..

Andre

rec.autos.simulators

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