rec.autos.simulators

by **Eldre** » Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:47:12

>You can't really learn anything with all those laps. All they are doing is
>taking a sim and turning it into nothing but a hand/eye (and foot)
>coordination exercise and burning each movement into their sub conscious.
>You should be able to close your eyes and do fast laps with that much
>practice. I've pissed some people off with similiar comments to that in the
>past but it's simple logic really.

Then the fact that I can't match laptimes after the same number of laps(even
MORE than some) doesn't make any sense. If I'm coordinating a 1:30 laptime,
how do I get to the 1:20's that others are running? I don't agree with you on
that simply because there ARE people who can't match fastlaps, even with 100's
of laps in practice and races. If what you say was true, we'd ALL be able to
match Huttu's times.

TSW2mod, left-foot braking. ~37 fps. I'll have to double-check my settings.
I'm at work now...

Eldred

--
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by **Eldre** » Wed, 17 Apr 2002 00:47:12

>when you think you know the track, you always find some more things to learn,
>breaking point, approching the corner ... I had one sim I knew the tracks
>inside
>out, I can tell you, in the end you dont even concentrate any more, you just
>know exactly what to do, and I guess this is what you lack having not enough
>'tracktime'

On a track like Nurburgring or Rouen, I'll agree with you. But one like
Silverstone, Kyalami, Zandvoort - I've run several hundred laps there. I think
I know the track itself well enough. I could run laps there all day within my
'comfort area'. When I try something to get faster, that's when I crash. I
ran some practice laps at Mosport last week for a league race. I ran off a
string of laps within a second of each other with no problem. Another driver
got on the track and I tried to follow her around - I kept falling off the
track, using her same line. She was about 2 seconds faster per lap, and I
couldn't get close.

As I said earlier in this thread(and others have said) it isn't the setup.
Maybe for the last few tenths, but not for basic speed. Some people can beat
the benchmark laps using the default setups. There's something I'm doing
differently(or NOT doing) that's holding me back. And it's not discernable to
me what that is... It may be my perception of the track on a 2D screen, it may
be my controller, it may be something different altogether. I don't know.
And it can't just 'take quite some time'. There are people who get GPL for the
first time, and go 'negative' within the first month. When did it come out -
1998? I've had it for nearly 4 YEARS...

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...

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Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie
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by **Tony Van Caute** » Wed, 17 Apr 2002 01:07:05

What does he mean, you cant really learn anything ... surely pissed off some guys
with that statement, does he want to redefine the word 'learning' ? ... and
exercise is not learning .. interesting

> >You can't really learn anything with all those laps. All they are doing is
> >taking a sim and turning it into nothing but a hand/eye (and foot)
> >coordination exercise and burning each movement into their sub conscious.
> >You should be able to close your eyes and do fast laps with that much
> >practice. I've pissed some people off with similiar comments to that in the
> >past but it's simple logic really.

> Then the fact that I can't match laptimes after the same number of laps(even
> MORE than some) doesn't make any sense. If I'm coordinating a 1:30 laptime,
> how do I get to the 1:20's that others are running? I don't agree with you on
> that simply because there ARE people who can't match fastlaps, even with 100's
> of laps in practice and races. If what you say was true, we'd ALL be able to
> match Huttu's times.

> >From reading your posts over time, I really wonder if you have your
> >controller set up correctly for whatever sim you're running. I know you were
> >frustrated with F2001 for that reason. I'm wondering with N2002, what
> >controller do you use, do you use left foot braking, and what exactly is
> >your linear/non-linear setting? Having the controller set up correctly, and
> >keeping the fps above at least 35 at all times are extremely important.

> TSW2mod, left-foot braking. ~37 fps. I'll have to double-check my settings.
> I'm at work now...

> Eldred

> --
> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> GPLRank - under construction...

> Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of 0-12???
> Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

--

rgds,
Tony

_____________________________________________________
Tony Van Cauter
Staff Consultant
Applications SysAdmin/DBA

Oracle Belgium
Airport Business Center
Vuurberg 80, 1831 Diegem
+32-(0)2-719.12.11
_____________________________________________________
32-(0)2-719.57.95 0497/59.66.44

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by **Tony Van Caute** » Wed, 17 Apr 2002 01:16:22

What you are saying is that you are slower than somebody else, OK, so what .. that
doesnt mean you cant improve, its like the other guy said, running 1000 laps will
not make you very fast, it CAN make you very fast .. surely somebody with only ten
laps experience NO WAY can beat somebody with 1000 laps experience, except for a
very lucky day maybe

if you cant figure out why somebody is so much faster than you, try another
controller, another pc, another chair .. anything .. its a combination, maybe you
are sitting in a room with lots of other noises to distract .. I dont know .. or
maybe you just arent that fast, and thats nothing to be ashamed about, I tend to
always end up last on network games, so what .. its for fun ...

and setup : aaaaargh, I hate this part, depends on games, take a real pro, give him
a keyboard controller and basic setup

take a newbie, and give him a steering wheel and the nearly perfect setup

some games will allow that newb to beat a pro .. if your speed diff is so high,
there is no way .. but like I said, it depends on the game

> >when you think you know the track, you always find some more things to learn,
> >breaking point, approching the corner ... I had one sim I knew the tracks
> >inside
> >out, I can tell you, in the end you dont even concentrate any more, you just
> >know exactly what to do, and I guess this is what you lack having not enough
> >'tracktime'

> On a track like Nurburgring or Rouen, I'll agree with you. But one like
> Silverstone, Kyalami, Zandvoort - I've run several hundred laps there. I think
> I know the track itself well enough. I could run laps there all day within my
> 'comfort area'. When I try something to get faster, that's when I crash. I
> ran some practice laps at Mosport last week for a league race. I ran off a
> string of laps within a second of each other with no problem. Another driver
> got on the track and I tried to follow her around - I kept falling off the
> track, using her same line. She was about 2 seconds faster per lap, and I
> couldn't get close.

> >no offence at all, but it takes quite some time, but don't forget a car setup
> >makes the first difference

> As I said earlier in this thread(and others have said) it isn't the setup.
> Maybe for the last few tenths, but not for basic speed. Some people can beat
> the benchmark laps using the default setups. There's something I'm doing
> differently(or NOT doing) that's holding me back. And it's not discernable to
> me what that is... It may be my perception of the track on a 2D screen, it may
> be my controller, it may be something different altogether. I don't know.
> And it can't just 'take quite some time'. There are people who get GPL for the
> first time, and go 'negative' within the first month. When did it come out -
> 1998? I've had it for nearly 4 YEARS...

> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> GPLRank - under construction...

> Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of 0-12???
> Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

--

rgds,
Tony

_____________________________________________________
Tony Van Cauter
Staff Consultant
Applications SysAdmin/DBA

Oracle Belgium
Airport Business Center
Vuurberg 80, 1831 Diegem
+32-(0)2-719.12.11
_____________________________________________________
32-(0)2-719.57.95 0497/59.66.44

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by **Haqsa** » Wed, 17 Apr 2002 07:58:03

Or try a different game altogether, Eldred. Whenever I have been
plateaued out at any form of physical training, there are only two ways
that I know to get through it - either quit for a while and come back a
week or a month later to see if you have gotten over whatever is
blocking you, or go do something that is different but related - "cross
training". The former method is most applicable if you have reached a
sufficient frustration level to where you yourself are preventing your
own progress. The latter is more applicable when there is a skill or a
physical quality that you are simply unable to develop using your
current regimen, but that is necessary for your improvement. While your
recent posts have made it sound like the former applies to you, I'm
going to guess that it's actually the latter. After all, something had
to cause that frustration. ;o) For example, I think I remember you
making a comment a few weeks ago about not being able to slide around
like other people do. I think that the controlled four wheel drift is
what separates an average lap from a really fast lap. It's what allows
you to go around corners fast without sacrificing exit speed or vice
versa. I still don't have it down, but when I can pull it off the
effect on my lap times has been pretty dramatic. One thing I tried that
really helped a lot is I recently played Rallisport Challenge on the
Xbox. That game allows you to easily start a drift, catch it, control
it, and power out of it. I would assume most other rally games do too,
like Rally Trophy for example. After spending about 4 hours playing
Rallisport Challenge multiplayer with some friends, I fired up GPL again
and it felt totally different. I started anticipating corners better
and setting up the drift as I approached them. Zandvoort is especially
good for practicing this. I also, due to learning to anticipate things
in Rallisport, started to see my way through the whole corner on a more
consistent basis. Since doing that I have dropped my GPL Rank from
around 180 to 110 or so. Still crappy numbers I know, but the point is
that it got me over the hump on several tracks that I was having
difficulty with. And that's really the point of my example, not that
you necessarily need to go play Rally Trophy specifically, but that you
probably need to try something distinctly different from GPL to get you
over the hump. Cross training. Just a thought.

by **Dave Henri** » Wed, 17 Apr 2002 08:53:48

"EldredP"
(snip)
Another driver
I feel your pain Eldred,
That is a guarenteed way for me to spin. I can follow another faster
driver, and make a few turns, trying to match their lines and braking and
acceleration points...but I can say with complete certainty, that I will
shortly be swapping ends and the back part of the car will be in front...
EVERYTIME.

by **David G Fishe** » Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:59:08

>> >From reading your posts over time, I really wonder if you have your
> >controller set up correctly for whatever sim you're running. I know you
were
> >frustrated with F2001 for that reason. I'm wondering with N2002, what
> >controller do you use, do you use left foot braking, and what exactly is
> >your linear/non-linear setting? Having the controller set up correctly,
and
> >keeping the fps above at least 35 at all times are extremely important.

> TSW2mod, left-foot braking. ~37 fps. I'll have to double-check my
settings.
> I'm at work now...

That you don't know the linear/non linear setting without checking leads me
to believe that's probably where your problems in N2002 are. If it's not set
right through experimentation, then the cars are basically going to handle
like crap. Tony R. was having handling problems which he described in
another thread recently and it ended up his linear/non linear setting was
wrong. It really is critical to get that right or all the practice and
thought you've obviously put into this issue is wasted.

With my Ferrari FF wheel, I run 100% linear. Others find that too high, and
by just turning it down to around 96%, their cars feel better. I also think
that ff would probably be a big help to you.

As far as learning a track, I'll just describe what I did with Pocono this
past week. I'd only run some laps there once before a few weeks ago with you
and that was it until you announced it would be the the RASCAR race we had
this past weekend. In about 100 laps spread over three days I was able to do
fairly consistent 55's in testing. I looked at some replays of my best laps
and found that in order to do them, I needed to not drop below 135mph in T1,
145 in T2, and 125 in T3. A really good lap I'd raise that minimum speed
another 5mph. The other thing I found was that I liked to brake a little
later and a bit deeper into the tunrs, and stay a just a bit wide right of
the race line on turn entry. I also had to find out how the car handled as
the tires wore and got really hot. That's about it really other than running
with the AI to get used to traffic on that track and being forced into
different lines. I've done the same for each RASCAR race so far.

David G Fisher

by **David G Fishe** » Wed, 17 Apr 2002 14:17:57

> > > You can't really learn anything with all those laps. All they are
doing is
> > > taking a sim and turning it into nothing but a hand/eye (and foot)
> > > coordination exercise and burning each movement into their
sub-conscious.
> > > You should be able to close your eyes and do fast laps with that much
> > > practice. I've pissed some people off with similiar comments to that
> > > in the past but it's simple logic really.
> DGF, Would you rather race against someone who has driven 1000 laps or
> 100?

I like what's going on in the RASCAR races actually. Some of us are new to
NASCAR sim racing. N2002 is such a good sim that it finally pulled some of
us in. I think most of us who have been in the races are probably practicing
about the same amount before each race since we don't even know what the
track will be until around mid week when the track is announced. Real
drivers in auto racing have limited practice time, and it seems more
realistic to have these races knowing most of us are limited too. Some of
the guys probably have done a lot more laps on the NASCAR tracks only
because they may have run N3/N4, and not because they do huge amounts of
practicing. Since the physics have changed for N2002 and we are using a
fixed setup, they still have to relearn the game and car handling and lose a
lot of whatever advantage they might of had. If someone ends up joining
these RASCAR races who is one of the sim racers who runs tons of laps, I'm
not going to be annoyed at all or complain. It won't bother me a bit. People
can certainly enjoy a sim any way they like. If they win the race then
that's perfectly fine too. I can't honestly say though that I will be
impressed at all by their performance, just like I wouldn't be impressed by
a real life driver who was who was getting a lot more practice laps than his
competitors at a track and then winning the races.

David G Fisher

by **Damien Smit** » Wed, 17 Apr 2002 18:26:09

<snip>

I can attest to this method working. My F12001 rank was stuck in the +20s
and I became frustrated so I decided to get back into GPL and I played it
for about a month or so. I then decided to come back to F12001 and lo and
behold my rank tumbled dramatically. I don't think I was doing anything
different but all I can guess is that the drifting and throttle control
necessary for GPL was translated to F12001. Interresting topic anyway,
Eldred.

--
Damien Smith

ICQ: 77028579
F12001 rank: -5.658
GPL rank: um, yes.

by **Joakim Lauridse** » Wed, 17 Apr 2002 20:01:48

Maybe you go for to big improvements in to small steps. You tried to follow
a person 2 seconds a lap quicker, and of course that is bound to go wrong. I
presume you use Replay Analyzer to compare your own laps to faster laps?
Don't compare your times to Huttu or other Aliens, compare to someone just
slightly faster than yourself, and see where they gain time from you and the
try and copy that. Is it a different line, earlier on the gas, later on the
brakes, another gear maybe? Try and copy that.

And to your original question on 100s vs. 1000s of laps. First of all we are
all different. I need a lot of laps to get quick, and then even more to
become consistent and stable. and then I need to practice racing to a lot,
to come close to what I do alone, with other cars on track to. That's just
how I do it. To become quick most people need the 100s of laps, and from
there the gain in lap times become less and less, but to gain the 1/1000s of
seconds the alien does, you need a lot more laps. Time wise, you gain a lot
more form the first numbers of laps, but to keep gaining more, you need more
and more laps. You I guess, as me, are not a that stage yet, but I think we
still benefit from laps and laps of practice. You say that you can run in
your comfort zone for laps, but when you try and push you crash. That is not
necessarily a bad thing. You need to crash sometimes, if you don't you are
not pushing hard enough. You need to explore your limits. You need to
experiment with different lines, braking points etc. I don't know you well
enough to know if you do this, but you also need to try different cars and
not focus to long on each track at at time, when you seem stuck. But
sometimes you also need to stay focused one the one track you want to
improve on, for enough time and laps at a time. And I don't think it helps
you much that you switch a lot around from different simulators either. I
know my GPL gets messed up pretty bad, if I do to much Nasser or Rallying in
between.

Joakim

by **Tony Van Caute** » Wed, 17 Apr 2002 20:16:51

maybe dont follow other drivers and try to be as fast as them, doesnt work for
me cause I have to concentrate on one thing more then, which is really too much,
other drivers probably have other ways of driving

> "EldredP"
> (snip)
> Another driver
> > got on the track and I tried to follow her around - I kept falling off the
> > track, using her same line. She was about 2 seconds faster per lap, and I
> > couldn't get close.
> I feel your pain Eldred,
> That is a guarenteed way for me to spin. I can follow another faster
> driver, and make a few turns, trying to match their lines and braking and
> acceleration points...but I can say with complete certainty, that I will
> shortly be swapping ends and the back part of the car will be in front...
> EVERYTIME.

> > Eldred
> > --
> > Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
> > GPLRank - under construction...

> > Can the Detroit Tigers match the Detroit Lions' blazing 2001 start of
> 0-12???
> > Currently at 0-11 as of April14th...stay tuned...one more to tie
> > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

--

rgds,
Tony

_____________________________________________________
Tony Van Cauter
Staff Consultant
Applications SysAdmin/DBA

Oracle Belgium
Airport Business Center
Vuurberg 80, 1831 Diegem
+32-(0)2-719.12.11
_____________________________________________________
32-(0)2-719.57.95 0497/59.66.44

Tony.Van.Cauter.vcf
< 1K Download

by **Uncle Feste** » Wed, 17 Apr 2002 22:35:00

> I can't honestly say though that I will be
> impressed at all by their performance, just like I wouldn't be impressed by
> a real life driver who was who was getting a lot more practice laps than his
> competitors at a track and then winning the races.

That's right. Which is why MS is a lot less impressive than JPM. :-P

--

Fester

Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> 4/15/02

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 18 Apr 2002 04:48:12

> > I can't honestly say though that I will be
> > impressed at all by their performance, just like I wouldn't be impressed
by
> > a real life driver who was who was getting a lot more practice laps than
his
> > competitors at a track and then winning the races.

> That's right. Which is why MS is a lot less impressive than JPM. :-P

............who's a lot less impressive than Raikkonen, Massa, and Button.
:-)

David G Fisher

by **Eldre** » Thu, 18 Apr 2002 05:10:49

>With my Ferrari FF wheel, I run 100% linear. Others find that too high, and
>by just turning it down to around 96%, their cars feel better. I also think
>that ff would probably be a big help to you.

I checked it, and it was set at 20%. I tried about 5 laps with it set to 70%.
The car felt like it would be a LOT easier to get into a 'tankslapper'. I
didn't have too many problems in those 5 laps, but I was all alone on the
track, and I was only running 57 second laps... :(

What do you have the AI% set to?

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank - under construction...

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by **Eldre** » Thu, 18 Apr 2002 05:10:48

>Maybe you go for to big improvements in to small steps. You tried to follow
>a person 2 seconds a lap quicker, and of course that is bound to go wrong. I
>presume you use Replay Analyzer to compare your own laps to faster laps?
>Don't compare your times to Huttu or other Aliens, compare to someone just
>slightly faster than yourself, and see where they gain time from you and the
>try and copy that. Is it a different line, earlier on the gas, later on the
>brakes, another gear maybe? Try and copy that.

I've discovered that a lot of them brake much later than I do. At the point
where the nose of my car dips under braking, they're still at full throttle.
Gears are usually 'staggered' by the same amount throughout the graph(except
for some turns where I drop one gear lower). No, I probably didn't explain
that clearly enough. On most of the graphs I compare, I'm just *that* much
lower on top speed, etc - through the whole lap. Earlier on the gas? I
can't do that if I want to stay on the track...

I'm in 2 different leagues, and a 'racing club'(no stats kept). I drive the
Cooper exclusively in one league, and a Lotus/Eagle combo in the other. In the
club, I've driven the Lotus, Eagle, Ferrari, and Brab. I can't STAND the BRM
and Honda.

Eldred

--
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rec.autos.simulators

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