rec.autos.simulators

NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

Jason Moy

NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

by Jason Moy » Fri, 18 Oct 2002 11:55:19

Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be?

Yes, it is that bad.

As far as the handling goes, it's significantly worse than the FIA
GTv3 mod.  Speaking of that mod, apparently Tiburion didn't have any
luck getting rid of the "smoke/dirt/rain inside the***pit" effect
either.

I'm seriously appalled that I spent $40 on this coaster.  On the plus
side, having everything that annoyed me about the F1 2002 engine
smacking me straight in the face at every turn (literally) has made me
feel better about my gradual dislike for that "sim" as well.

Jason

TDRacin

NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

by TDRacin » Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:20:27

Take it back.  If you don't, then you are supporting EA and letting them
know you like it.  This goes for anyone else who purchases it and dislikes
it.     TAKE IT BACK!!!!!!!  If the store won't take it back, send it back
to EA.  They have a satisfaction guarantee.


Jon

NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

by Jon » Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:26:23


> Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be?
> Jason

  It ain't no GPL !
Jason Moy

NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

by Jason Moy » Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:30:54



Did I mention that the pre-release screenshots showing 3-wide through
the esses at Watkins Glen were legitimate?  I just ran a full lap at
Pocono against 100% AI, 4-wide.  Beautiful work.

Jason

Dave Henri

NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

by Dave Henri » Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:47:03




> >Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be?

> Did I mention that the pre-release screenshots showing 3-wide through
> the esses at Watkins Glen were legitimate?  I just ran a full lap at
> Pocono against 100% AI, 4-wide.  Beautiful work.

> Jason

   So....you are saying that doing something that is NOT do-able in real
Nascar racing is a GOOD thing?  4 wide down the main straight at Pocono, but
that's it...and 3 wide at the Esses...nobody in WC has brass balls that
big...
dave henrie
ymenar

NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

by ymenar » Fri, 18 Oct 2002 13:08:30


>    So....you are saying that doing something that is NOT do-able in real
> Nascar racing is a GOOD thing?

I think you missed his sarcasm Dave ;)

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://ymenard.cjb.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

Joachim Trens

NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

by Joachim Trens » Fri, 18 Oct 2002 17:45:09

Thanks for the info Jason.

Achim


Jason Moy

NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

by Jason Moy » Fri, 18 Oct 2002 21:08:19

On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:08:30 -0400, "ymenard"



>>    So....you are saying that doing something that is NOT do-able in real
>> Nascar racing is a GOOD thing?

>I think you missed his sarcasm Dave ;)

Sarcasm?  I was complimenting how realistic you can run multiple lines
in the game!!  High, low, middle, against the wall, on the infield, in
row 20 of the grandstand, doesn't matter!

Did I mention that Pocono feels like the Autobahn and that half the
turns at Watkins Glen are apparently banked?

Jason

Bill Bollinge

NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

by Bill Bollinge » Fri, 18 Oct 2002 22:28:44

You are smoking Jason... The game is good.


Bill Bollinge

NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

by Bill Bollinge » Fri, 18 Oct 2002 22:29:41

Yes, because it actually feels like a car, not like some hover craft :)





Bill Bollinge

NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

by Bill Bollinge » Fri, 18 Oct 2002 22:31:04

The AI are much better than N2002's follow the leader and *** by number
Pace Car :)






> > >Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be?

> > Did I mention that the pre-release screenshots showing 3-wide through
> > the esses at Watkins Glen were legitimate?  I just ran a full lap at
> > Pocono against 100% AI, 4-wide.  Beautiful work.

> > Jason
>    So....you are saying that doing something that is NOT do-able in real
> Nascar racing is a GOOD thing?  4 wide down the main straight at Pocono,
but
> that's it...and 3 wide at the Esses...nobody in WC has brass balls that
> big...
> dave henrie

Bill Bollinge

NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

by Bill Bollinge » Fri, 18 Oct 2002 22:34:03

Kind of like that "realistic" Bristol and Martinsville are to N2002 :)

Keep up that Backmarking Jason :)


> On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 00:08:30 -0400, "ymenard"


> >>    So....you are saying that doing something that is NOT do-able in
real
> >> Nascar racing is a GOOD thing?

> >I think you missed his sarcasm Dave ;)

> Sarcasm?  I was complimenting how realistic you can run multiple lines
> in the game!!  High, low, middle, against the wall, on the infield, in
> row 20 of the grandstand, doesn't matter!

> Did I mention that Pocono feels like the Autobahn and that half the
> turns at Watkins Glen are apparently banked?

> Jason

Jason Moy

NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

by Jason Moy » Sat, 19 Oct 2002 01:57:13



<snip>

Ok, I was tired when I posted this so here's some details on what is
good and bad about the sim.

1. Graphics

If you like F1 2002, you might like these.  The default LOD bias
causes the cars to deres literally 5 feet in front of you.  As Ed
Solheim pointed out in another thread, the rear view mirror makes it
look like cars are literally on top of you.  The graphics feature the
same flicker as the ISI F1 games, regardless of the FSAA level you
use.  The textures remind me of SCGT, i.e. cartoony, dark, and
oversaturated.  The car models aren't bad, but the cars seem much
longer than a real WC stock car.

The damage modelling is seriously humorous.  Hitting something on the
side, like the wall, will cause the side to dent in a'la Nascar 2002
but also puts a big gray hole in the car.  Best I can tell there's no
damage to the hood or roof.  I've backed  the car into the wall at
over 100mph and the bumper dented a bit, I was disappointed after
being used to the way N2002 smushes your bumper all the way to the
axle.  The nose damage looks wrong, after taking a few hits at the
front the car starts looking like a shart, as you have this middle bit
that sticks out with big dents on either side that, in real life,
would be impossible because of the chassis and engine block being
there.

N2002 wins this category hands down, especially in terms of texture
realism and graphical clarity.  It also runs 30 frames per second
faster on my machine with full detail at 1280x1024x16 than NT2003
does.  NT2003 does get bonus points for attempting to include some
classic cars, but who wants to drive Cale Yarborough's early 80's #28
car with "Cale" written on it instead of Hardee's.

The wheel/hands are ugly and can't be removed in-game.  However you
can comment out the lines that define these in the vehicle.gen file
and everything looks much much better...except that the default
***pit camera feels like you have your face pressed against the
windshield, but YMMV.

2. Sound

Most of the menu music is horrible, the single saving grace being
Steppenwolf's "Magic Carpet Ride" which I wish would just loop.  

The commentators at the beginning of the race sound like they were
recorded in my bathroom.  Actually, I've done recordings in my
bathroom and they were of higher quality.  For some curious reason,
they've left out the driver introductions, so when the game does the
standard F12k2 scroll through the field, you're left with an awkward
silence.  Thankfully, this is preferable to hearing more of the
announcing.

Driving, the engine sound is far inferior to N2002.  The tire sounds
are far inferior to N2002.  For the engines it seriously sounds like
they sampled a chainsaw and ran it through some cheap plate reverb,
it's that bad.

3. Layout/Presentation

The menus are horrible.  Thankfully on the track selection screen
there are drop down boxes you can access to select the track, but most
things are laid out completely illogically and/or a pain to find.
Selecting a driver (you have to use one of the real cars, there's no
paintshop included or option to simply drive as yourself) requires
going through a list with all of the drivers, which is a time
consuming process.

The rest is pretty much straight from F1 2002, with different icons
and maybe slightly different on-screen placement.

The race weekend is annoying.  There is no option to use a short pace
lap, even with auto pace lap turned on, so at a place like the Glen be
prepared to spend 5-10 minutes on a pace lap before putting in even a
short race.  Speaking of auto pace lap, if auto pace lap and/or auto
pitting are enabled, the game gives no warning that it's going to
return control to you.  Just suddenly the spotter yells "GO GO GO" and
you're sitting there scrambling for your wheel.

The fighter jets screaming overhead at every single track are cheesy.
On the other hand, I really felt like having sex with my cousin at
that point, so it could be what they're going for.

Replays are done F1 2002 style, so nothing to comment there.  If
you've played an ISI game, you know what it's like.

4. Track Modelling

Apparently Pocono is 4 or 5 lanes wide, doesn't require any braking,
and is paved in concrete.  Apparently the esses and the outer loop at
the Glen are banked about as much as Bristol, at least with the little
bit of banking Bristol has in this game.  Seriously appalling.  The
off-track details are of course just as bad, but you can't really
expect much when the actual track surfaces are so far off.

Speaking of track modelling, unless there is a change in banking at
the apron, you can drive it without a penalty.  Just ran some really
quick laps at Tally without venturing above the yellow line.

If you're played a Papy NASCAR sim, or even watched a race or two on
TV, be prepared for a shock the first time you take the car on the
track.  Throw everything you know about the line of the tracks out the
window, you won't need 'em here.

5. Physics

First, I'm using super-high frequency physics, which can be changed in
the PLR file.  The standard are similar, as in F1 2002, while the
flaws in the engine tend to be exaggerated somewhat.

Just like F1 2002, a car that should be on the edge of traction at
high speeds is glued to the track.  If you do use your brakes here,
which I recommend since there's no engine braking to speak of, don't
worry about applying them until you're near the apex.  Turn 1 at
Pocono can be taken flat out until you near the apex, same with the
turns at Bristol, Dover, and Martinsville.  

Apparently the reason drivers spin at Bristol is because of the cracks
in the concrete.  I never noticed that before.  It must be tough
flooring it there when the car wants to spin because the rear wheels
are 6 inches off the ground every time your drive over a seal.

As in F1 2002, make sure you keep the framerate above 60.  The
polygon-based physics are touchy as always, and if those poor attempts
at high-frequency bump modelling send you 6 inches off the ground at
60 fps, they'll have you sailing into the grass at 20 fps.

GPL and N2002 win hands down at capturing the feel of a car on the
threshold of friction (so does Dirt Track Racing 2, of all the
surprises).  To some it may feel like a hovercar, I suppose, but I'd
also guess that a car that is on the edge of control is going to feel
more like a bug skittering on the surface of the water than a tank
glued firmly in place until a rumble strip causes the rear end to snap
around.  I'm probably wrong tho.  As in F1 2002, the sensation of
weight transfer is minimal.  While this may be acceptable in a
ground-hugging stiff-as-carbon F1 car, it feels completely out of
place in the hulking behemoths in this game.  There is very little
indication of what the car is doing in terms of weight transfer, which
imho makes the sim harder to drive than N2002, at least when putting
the car on the edge.  Thankfully, harder in this case doesn't mean
more realistic.

Controller configuration is as bad as F1 2002.  An amusing note is
that the speed sensitivity slider doesn't go below 10% in the menus,
but it does register as 0% if you check your PLR file.

Jason

Tim

NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

by Tim » Sat, 19 Oct 2002 02:04:17

Bill, really.

We all know how you feel about Papyrus, but that is no reason to say EA has a better sim.
If you think about it, Papy Did make several enhancements over the years, even though that slowed as Sierra stepped in.
Still, it remains to be seen if EA will do the same, thereby changing their own habits.

--
Tim White
www.intracmotorsports.com


  The AI are much better than N2002's follow the leader and *** by number
  Pace Car :)



  >




  > >
  > > >Anyone know what tracks Pocono and Watkins Glen are supposed to be?
  > >
  > > Did I mention that the pre-release screenshots showing 3-wide through
  > > the esses at Watkins Glen were legitimate?  I just ran a full lap at
  > > Pocono against 100% AI, 4-wide.  Beautiful work.
  > >
  > > Jason
  >    So....you are saying that doing something that is NOT do-able in real
  > Nascar racing is a GOOD thing?  4 wide down the main straight at Pocono,
  but
  > that's it...and 3 wide at the Esses...nobody in WC has brass balls that
  > big...
  > dave henrie
  >
  >
  >

jrdrag

NASCAR Thunder 2003 Mini-Review

by jrdrag » Sat, 19 Oct 2002 02:40:03

Jason,
Thank you for helping with me decide whether to buy NT2003. You are
obviously one of those who are so stuck on Papy and their $50.00 patches
that you wouldn't give anything a far chance. That was obvious from earlier
posts before the game was released. So, I will leave N4 on my harddrive for
my little boy to play with, while I will move on and try something
different. Actually having more fun right now with the Lemans mod for F1
2002. And, like Heat, I will support anyone that goes head to head with Papy
and their $50.00 patches.
Thanks for the rant



> <snip>

> Ok, I was tired when I posted this so here's some details on what is
> good and bad about the sim.

> 1. Graphics

> If you like F1 2002, you might like these.  The default LOD bias
> causes the cars to deres literally 5 feet in front of you.  As Ed
> Solheim pointed out in another thread, the rear view mirror makes it
> look like cars are literally on top of you.  The graphics feature the
> same flicker as the ISI F1 games, regardless of the FSAA level you
> use.  The textures remind me of SCGT, i.e. cartoony, dark, and
> oversaturated.  The car models aren't bad, but the cars seem much
> longer than a real WC stock car.

> The damage modelling is seriously humorous.  Hitting something on the
> side, like the wall, will cause the side to dent in a'la Nascar 2002
> but also puts a big gray hole in the car.  Best I can tell there's no
> damage to the hood or roof.  I've backed  the car into the wall at
> over 100mph and the bumper dented a bit, I was disappointed after
> being used to the way N2002 smushes your bumper all the way to the
> axle.  The nose damage looks wrong, after taking a few hits at the
> front the car starts looking like a shart, as you have this middle bit
> that sticks out with big dents on either side that, in real life,
> would be impossible because of the chassis and engine block being
> there.

> N2002 wins this category hands down, especially in terms of texture
> realism and graphical clarity.  It also runs 30 frames per second
> faster on my machine with full detail at 1280x1024x16 than NT2003
> does.  NT2003 does get bonus points for attempting to include some
> classic cars, but who wants to drive Cale Yarborough's early 80's #28
> car with "Cale" written on it instead of Hardee's.

> The wheel/hands are ugly and can't be removed in-game.  However you
> can comment out the lines that define these in the vehicle.gen file
> and everything looks much much better...except that the default
>***pit camera feels like you have your face pressed against the
> windshield, but YMMV.

> 2. Sound

> Most of the menu music is horrible, the single saving grace being
> Steppenwolf's "Magic Carpet Ride" which I wish would just loop.

> The commentators at the beginning of the race sound like they were
> recorded in my bathroom.  Actually, I've done recordings in my
> bathroom and they were of higher quality.  For some curious reason,
> they've left out the driver introductions, so when the game does the
> standard F12k2 scroll through the field, you're left with an awkward
> silence.  Thankfully, this is preferable to hearing more of the
> announcing.

> Driving, the engine sound is far inferior to N2002.  The tire sounds
> are far inferior to N2002.  For the engines it seriously sounds like
> they sampled a chainsaw and ran it through some cheap plate reverb,
> it's that bad.

> 3. Layout/Presentation

> The menus are horrible.  Thankfully on the track selection screen
> there are drop down boxes you can access to select the track, but most
> things are laid out completely illogically and/or a pain to find.
> Selecting a driver (you have to use one of the real cars, there's no
> paintshop included or option to simply drive as yourself) requires
> going through a list with all of the drivers, which is a time
> consuming process.

> The rest is pretty much straight from F1 2002, with different icons
> and maybe slightly different on-screen placement.

> The race weekend is annoying.  There is no option to use a short pace
> lap, even with auto pace lap turned on, so at a place like the Glen be
> prepared to spend 5-10 minutes on a pace lap before putting in even a
> short race.  Speaking of auto pace lap, if auto pace lap and/or auto
> pitting are enabled, the game gives no warning that it's going to
> return control to you.  Just suddenly the spotter yells "GO GO GO" and
> you're sitting there scrambling for your wheel.

> The fighter jets screaming overhead at every single track are cheesy.
> On the other hand, I really felt like having sex with my cousin at
> that point, so it could be what they're going for.

> Replays are done F1 2002 style, so nothing to comment there.  If
> you've played an ISI game, you know what it's like.

> 4. Track Modelling

> Apparently Pocono is 4 or 5 lanes wide, doesn't require any braking,
> and is paved in concrete.  Apparently the esses and the outer loop at
> the Glen are banked about as much as Bristol, at least with the little
> bit of banking Bristol has in this game.  Seriously appalling.  The
> off-track details are of course just as bad, but you can't really
> expect much when the actual track surfaces are so far off.

> Speaking of track modelling, unless there is a change in banking at
> the apron, you can drive it without a penalty.  Just ran some really
> quick laps at Tally without venturing above the yellow line.

> If you're played a Papy NASCAR sim, or even watched a race or two on
> TV, be prepared for a shock the first time you take the car on the
> track.  Throw everything you know about the line of the tracks out the
> window, you won't need 'em here.

> 5. Physics

> First, I'm using super-high frequency physics, which can be changed in
> the PLR file.  The standard are similar, as in F1 2002, while the
> flaws in the engine tend to be exaggerated somewhat.

> Just like F1 2002, a car that should be on the edge of traction at
> high speeds is glued to the track.  If you do use your brakes here,
> which I recommend since there's no engine braking to speak of, don't
> worry about applying them until you're near the apex.  Turn 1 at
> Pocono can be taken flat out until you near the apex, same with the
> turns at Bristol, Dover, and Martinsville.

> Apparently the reason drivers spin at Bristol is because of the cracks
> in the concrete.  I never noticed that before.  It must be tough
> flooring it there when the car wants to spin because the rear wheels
> are 6 inches off the ground every time your drive over a seal.

> As in F1 2002, make sure you keep the framerate above 60.  The
> polygon-based physics are touchy as always, and if those poor attempts
> at high-frequency bump modelling send you 6 inches off the ground at
> 60 fps, they'll have you sailing into the grass at 20 fps.

> GPL and N2002 win hands down at capturing the feel of a car on the
> threshold of friction (so does Dirt Track Racing 2, of all the
> surprises).  To some it may feel like a hovercar, I suppose, but I'd
> also guess that a car that is on the edge of control is going to feel
> more like a bug skittering on the surface of the water than a tank
> glued firmly in place until a rumble strip causes the rear end to snap
> around.  I'm probably wrong tho.  As in F1 2002, the sensation of
> weight transfer is minimal.  While this may be acceptable in a
> ground-hugging stiff-as-carbon F1 car, it feels completely out of
> place in the hulking behemoths in this game.  There is very little
> indication of what the car is doing in terms of weight transfer, which
> imho makes the sim harder to drive than N2002, at least when putting
> the car on the edge.  Thankfully, harder in this case doesn't mean
> more realistic.

> Controller configuration is as bad as F1 2002.  An amusing note is
> that the speed sensitivity slider doesn't go below 10% in the menus,
> but it does register as 0% if you check your PLR file.

> Jason


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