rec.autos.simulators

by **John Pancoas** » Tue, 09 Jul 2002 05:43:18

> On Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:36:26 -0400, "ymenard"

> >You don't "get" opportunities, you create them.

> Man. If I cared I'd go find the Schumacher threads from a month ago
> to see how many people argued that Schumacher did the wrong thing by
> letting Rubens win at the Mickey Mouse Ring but are now arguing that
> Jr should have sat behind his teammate last night...

> Jason

Lol, yeah, a bit to much of X files viewing going on with some it seems
<G> If, but, dog, rabbit.........guys are racing out there, not doing
physics/psychology experiments<G>
It ain't rocket science.

John

by **Tom Pabs** » Tue, 09 Jul 2002 09:00:45

Lol.....oh Dave Henrie....the kidder!

Tp

> > Shrug. Guess we'll agree to disagree on just about every point then
:)
> > No big deal.

> > John
> I'm sorry I just can't agree with that.
> dave henrie
> :)

by **Tom Pabs** » Tue, 09 Jul 2002 09:14:43

Yeah...I agree with "creating opportunities," Francois......but you don't
select the low probability ones with 3 or 4 laps to go......you only do that
when nothing better has presented itself and you are coming out of T4 on the
last lap! Even then......that was his teammate up in front....you know?
What do you think Michael would have done (or his dad).....if the situation
would have been reversed?

Anyway, I'm not "arguing" the fact that what Dale did was stupid......it
plain and simple *was* stupid. I'm inquiring as to why he made such a
choice. What's going on with him that would cause him to do that........its
not like him.....and his success already in a young racing career
(particularly on the SS) clearly indicates he knew better (or should have).
Is the situation of him trying to be a driver, a team leader, a family
business leader......a family leader......taking its toll on Dale? I am
150% behind Dale, Jr. and an admirer of his racing talents. I also don't
want to see anymore tragedy in that family.

I just wondered what you guys thought was really going on.

Tom

> > There was no "opportunity" to win..

> You don't "get" opportunities, you create them.

> Sometimes you have to gamble, he did even if his chances were pretty low,
it
> did not work. Simple as that. I mean, it's the same as every ***y
people
> who take a chance at the lottery, no? ;)

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
> Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Tom Pabs** » Tue, 09 Jul 2002 09:18:57

Amen to that.

Tp

> > Yep. I was wondering about that during the last few laps myself.

> > Would they . . . . could they . . . . . Nah. Great stuff.

> > But I'm glad that Michael won. He had the better car and drive on the
> > night.

> Yep. Nice to see Mikey get a chance finally for a *real* celebration at
> Daytona. He deserves it.

> --

> Fester

by **Tom Pabs** » Tue, 09 Jul 2002 09:43:30

Uncle...

I think Dale Sr. was anything but a "win at all costs" driver. He was
smarter than his contemporaries......and his "unorthodox" methods appeared
to be risky.......but I think he had thought them through enough to know
they weren't. Sometimes, when you have someone (particularly in racing) who
"thinks outside the box"......the establishment looks at their methods as
being flamboyant/risky/cavalier.....when in fact they are nothing but plain
old innovative. I do agree Montoya fits that label.....of a young Earnhardt
in an F1 car. He's probably the next F1 champion when Michael is done
winning F1 champs.

TP

> > ......I've never seen a "win at all costs" driver
> > have any long term success in racing. Can anyone? C'mon guys!

> Dale Sr. And JPM. :-P

> --

> Fester

by **frederickso** » Tue, 09 Jul 2002 10:32:35

i'd like to see them swap cars for a day and see what happens

by **Uncle Feste** » Tue, 09 Jul 2002 12:07:07

> Uncle...

> I think Dale Sr. was anything but a "win at all costs" driver. He was
> smarter than his contemporaries......and his "unorthodox" methods appeared
> to be risky.......but I think he had thought them through enough to know
> they weren't. Sometimes, when you have someone (particularly in racing) who
> "thinks outside the box"......the establishment looks at their methods as
> being flamboyant/risky/cavalier.....when in fact they are nothing but plain
> old innovative. I do agree Montoya fits that label.....of a young Earnhardt
> in an F1 car. He's probably the next F1 champion when Michael is done
> winning F1 champs.

I think Dale Sr. started out quite aggressive & got cagier as he aged.
Jr will get there as well with time, you can tell the underlying talent
base is there. Sr grew up faster, but probably had to. I'm sure Jr
will learn from this one quick, letting himself get "taunted" into
something he himself disagreed with. When it all comes together for him
mentally, he'll be a large force to be reckoned with in WC.

--

Fester

by **dr..** » Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:46:23

All the talk about whether it was a "good" thing to do for the team or
to "go for the win" are off point.

It was a dumb move that was certain to have the actual result.
Everyone follows Waltrip and Dale loses several places. Whether Rusty
likes Dale or not is also off point. Rusty did exactly the right
thing - lock up a sure second place with an inferior car. And so on
back.

A kid was goaded into trying to look "like a real race driver" by
someone who is paid very well to handle the situation wisely. A
simple and crisp - "If you get an opportunity, go for the win" would
have been professional, the emotional appeal to Dale's manhood was
not.

I'd be looking for a new crew cheif.

by **ssra** » Tue, 09 Jul 2002 16:07:41

>All the talk about whether it was a "good" thing to do for the team or
>to "go for the win" are off point.

>It was a dumb move that was certain to have the actual result.
>Everyone follows Waltrip and Dale loses several places. Whether Rusty
>likes Dale or not is also off point. Rusty did exactly the right
>thing - lock up a sure second place with an inferior car. And so on
>back.

>A kid was goaded into trying to look "like a real race driver" by
>someone who is paid very well to handle the situation wisely. A
>simple and crisp - "If you get an opportunity, go for the win" would
>have been professional, the emotional appeal to Dale's manhood was
>not.

>I'd be looking for a new crew cheif.

Uhh... not with that crew it actually IS a family wit I think 3-4
relations on the crew.
I did'nt like the way it came across on the radio either the " if you
get a chance" approach would have been better and I think Tony Eury
will do it that way if it happens again ( he does learn unlike some
other CC out there).
BTWY: what did you all think about the fact that they are using I.M
in the pitst for the three C.C's to talk, anyone not think this idea
came from Jr and his online experience

by **John Pancoas** » Tue, 09 Jul 2002 22:30:04

Oh, brother. All this from a conversation paraphrased by a PIT
REPORTER.................sheesh. Poor old Jr.; non-thinking, robotic
idiot........"rolls eyes"........

John

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:24:24

Absolutely "spot on" comments........thanks!

TP

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:33:09

Oh c'mon John......

Who would you have it "paraphrased from" better? A booth announcer? A fan
in the stands? Geeeeeesh! Those pit reporters are as close to the drivers
and teams of NASCAR....as the drivers and teams of NASCAR are! Every three
days....they spend four days with them*** around in the pits. The pit
reporters are as much of the NASCAR family as anyone in the NASCAR family.
And, they usually know 100 times more than what they publicly report. How
long do you think......would one of those reporters last in that environment
if they got tagged by the drivers and crew as "purposely distorting facts
and truth".....for the sake of a story? Probably about five minutes, dude!

Find another angle to dispute the importance of this, John.

TP

> > All the talk about whether it was a "good" thing to do for the team or
> > to "go for the win" are off point.

> > It was a dumb move that was certain to have the actual result.
> > Everyone follows Waltrip and Dale loses several places. Whether Rusty
> > likes Dale or not is also off point. Rusty did exactly the right
> > thing - lock up a sure second place with an inferior car. And so on
> > back.

> > A kid was goaded into trying to look "like a real race driver" by
> > someone who is paid very well to handle the situation wisely. A
> > simple and crisp - "If you get an opportunity, go for the win" would
> > have been professional, the emotional appeal to Dale's manhood was
> > not.

> > I'd be looking for a new crew cheif.

> Oh, brother. All this from a conversation paraphrased by a PIT
> REPORTER.................sheesh. Poor old Jr.; non-thinking, robotic
> idiot........"rolls eyes"........

> John

by **Tom Pabs** » Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:35:38

Agree totally.......thanks for the input.

TP

> > Uncle...

> > I think Dale Sr. was anything but a "win at all costs" driver. He was
> > smarter than his contemporaries......and his "unorthodox" methods
appeared
> > to be risky.......but I think he had thought them through enough to know
> > they weren't. Sometimes, when you have someone (particularly in racing)
who
> > "thinks outside the box"......the establishment looks at their methods
as
> > being flamboyant/risky/cavalier.....when in fact they are nothing but
plain
> > old innovative. I do agree Montoya fits that label.....of a young
Earnhardt
> > in an F1 car. He's probably the next F1 champion when Michael is done
> > winning F1 champs.

> I think Dale Sr. started out quite aggressive & got cagier as he aged.
> Jr will get there as well with time, you can tell the underlying talent
> base is there. Sr grew up faster, but probably had to. I'm sure Jr
> will learn from this one quick, letting himself get "taunted" into
> something he himself disagreed with. When it all comes together for him
> mentally, he'll be a large force to be reckoned with in WC.

> --

> Fester

by **The Other Larr** » Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:36:26

Tom,

His Crew Chief talked him into it. Dale knew it was the wrong thing to do
(evident in his after-race interview), but he did it anyway to please
others.

-Larry

> Yeah...I agree with "creating opportunities," Francois......but you don't
> select the low probability ones with 3 or 4 laps to go......you only do
that
> when nothing better has presented itself and you are coming out of T4 on
the
> last lap! Even then......that was his teammate up in front....you know?
> What do you think Michael would have done (or his dad).....if the
situation
> would have been reversed?

> Anyway, I'm not "arguing" the fact that what Dale did was stupid......it
> plain and simple *was* stupid. I'm inquiring as to why he made such a
> choice. What's going on with him that would cause him to do
that........its
> not like him.....and his success already in a young racing career
> (particularly on the SS) clearly indicates he knew better (or should
have).
> Is the situation of him trying to be a driver, a team leader, a family
> business leader......a family leader......taking its toll on Dale? I am
> 150% behind Dale, Jr. and an admirer of his racing talents. I also don't
> want to see anymore tragedy in that family.

> I just wondered what you guys thought was really going on.

> Tom

> > > There was no "opportunity" to win..

> > You don't "get" opportunities, you create them.

> > Sometimes you have to gamble, he did even if his chances were pretty
low,
> it
> > did not work. Simple as that. I mean, it's the same as every ***y
> people
> > who take a chance at the lottery, no? ;)

> > --
> > -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> > -- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
> > Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **The Other Larr** » Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:40:48

Dr Bob gets it, and is exactly right.

I don't think I"d fire Tony yet, but I'd sure have a talk with him :)

-Larry

rec.autos.simulators

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