rec.autos.simulators

Got a fast machine, now I need to know which video card will make NASCAR
1999 really rock.
Any suggestions?

If your priority is N99 and other papy sims then a hercules thriller 8 meg
is the card of choice. Of course if you also need 3dfx compatibilty then the
new v3 is the way to go. Or you could get the tnt2 ultra and patch the heck
out of everything but it will look good.
JM

Okay, John, "I love you, man" (obscure American joke stemming from domestic
beer commercial) but that does it! :)

"Card of choice!?!" Like it's a slam dunk? In the interest of providing
Stirling with a complete perspective, I must say that there is a large body
of people here that would *vehemently* disagree with you. I might even lump
myself in that group. :)

I've had all the "likely candidates" except a TNT2...Voodoo2, TNT, Banshee,
Thriller, Banshee again, and Voodoo3 3000. All were tested in the same "fast
machine" (P2-450-128). With two notable exceptions, in GPL, every upgrade in
that list easily surpassed the performance of the card it replaced. The
exceptions: Thriller and TNT.

And darn you, John! When you quote Thriller performance at 36 fps with all
settings maxed, can you tell us what resolution you're running?!? Comparing
640 x 480 or 800 x 600 to 1024 x 768 isn't really a comparison at all, is
it? I'm not sure I've ever seen GPL at anything less than 1024 x 768, so why
should Stirling, who by his own description has a "fast machine"?

Are you a disgruntled, former 3dfx employee? :)

Hoping you love your dog like your Thriller, I am

Jack Rambo

www.RaceLive.com/GPaL

If your priority is N99 and other papy sims then a hercules thriller 8 meg
is the card of choice. Of course if you also need 3dfx compatibilty then the
new v3 is the way to go. Or you could get the tnt2 ultra and patch the heck
out of everything but it will look good.
JM

   That's what the forum's for...  :)

   Well that's probably the difference.  I've got a C300A/450 and a
Thriller 8meg AGP.  And a 15" monitor.  I run GPL in 800x600
(sometimes 640x480 when I'm online and only at 300MHz).  With my
monitor, 1024 is a bit of a waste (and the fonts are too %$&%^ tiny!).
And, on the occasions that I've tried 1024x768, the Thriller chokes on
it, only getting about 24 fps on settings that would get a solid 36 at
800x600.  So if you only run 1024x768 or greater, and I (and maybe
John) only run 800x600 or less, that might lead to *slightly*
different conclusions.

   Let's look at what John said:

   "If your priority is N99 and other papy sims..."  NR99 (which was
the original question) only runs at 640x480, so performance at high
res is irrelevant.  Other Papyrus sims like ICR2/CART or SODA *only*
run 3D on Rendition.  GPL (and probably Viper) are the only Papyrus
sims that run better on a non-Rendition card (under certain
conditions, like GPL high res).  And then he went on to recommend
other cards if you had other priorities (although I'm not too sure
about the TNT2 for NR99...).  Sounded fairly objective to me.

   As opposed to the 3Dfx mafia?  :)

"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was
nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into
a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

But, Jeff. Doesn't it stand to reason that if one board outperforms another
at a given resolution, that you can, generally, expect better performance
from the same board at lower resolutions?

It would be interesting to compare the Rendition and Voodoo3 chips at the
back of a full-field Monaco grid with all the graphics and sound options
enabled.

John's (some would argue "blind") affection for the Thriller is
well-documented and the subject of some good-natured ribbing from me. Just
trying to offer a different perspective, based on firsthand observation. :)

3dfx Mafia? Nope, not part of the family. They would have rubbed me out if
they knew I bought both a TNT board and a Thriller!

Jack

www.RaceLive.com/GPaL

Jack,
  I had the opportunity to test this comparison recently, upgrading in
January to a C300A/464 with an existing PCI V2200 (Herc Thriller 12M),
then upgrading again from the V2200 to an AGP V3/3K in April.  No video
card overclocking has been done.  The frame rate for exactly the
condition you named with the Rendition card was approximately 14-18
fps.  With the Voodoo3, the frame rate is 22-26 fps under the same
conditions, with sync lock enabled.  I have not tested it that way
since disabling sync lock, though.  The V2200 is a great chip to use
with Papy stuff, but it is outdated when compared to the V3, especially
with a change from PCI to AGP on a fast PC.

Terry

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---

As might have been expected. Thanks for sharing that little bit of "R&D"
with us, Terry.

Jack

www.RaceLive.com/GPaL

Well, let's assume that the individual seeking advice wasn't going to be
playing strictly Pac Man from here on out. Given a relatively nominal
difference in cost and a substantial difference in performance, in games
other than Pac Man, wouldn't it behoove the individual to give strong
consideration to a Thriller alternative?

Jack Rambo

www.RaceLive.com/GPaL

   Yes and no.  Yes, theoretically, you can't ever have "enough".  But
in the real world, for a guy asking about NR99... "better" how?  If
the res and frame rate are locked, and you max them, what good is a
faster card?  Specifically, if NR99 is locked at 640x480 and (I think)
30 fps and you can achieve that with Card A, how would (a faster) Card
B be "better"?  IOW, if you're playing PacMan on a P3/500, does it
matter if you have a Thriller or Voodoo?  :)

   I'm not that vocal a Thriller advocate (believe it or not), because
I recognize the overwhelming selection of Glide titles available, and
the rising popularity of D3D and faster cards like the TNTs.  But, as
John said, if Papyrus sims are your thing, Rendition is a very good
choice (particularly for backward compatability).

   BTW, I don't have NR99 but I remember some complaints of pop-up
(more than N2) from 3Dfx users, but I don't remember if Rendition
users were complaining as well -- that might be another factor.

   You'd find the Thriller 8meg chokes at 1024x768 (much like the
V1000/4meg cards did at 800x600).  And it looks like the new Voodoo's
are strong through most resolutions.  And if that's what you want to
do with the card, that might well decide it.  If you were talking
about GPL, not NR99.  At least I don't remember seeing Monaco on the
WC schedule...  :)

   Me too (you missed the jab in another thread about the "lack of
pesky frequent driver updates" as a feature?)  Cuts both ways...  :)

   And good info it was.  (you know its coming)  About GPL.

   OK, OK, to be fair, it will probably apply to N2000, which should
have higher res's when it comes out sometime this fall.

   As a compromise, if he wants a decent Rendition card which runs
NR99 well, but won't cause palpatations when it gets junked in six
months, maybe a Diamond Stealth S220 with the Rendition V2100 for $30
or so might be a good investment.

   In any case, this guy should have *lots* of data to sift through
now, and maybe a chuckle or two to boot.  :)

   Jack, I didn't mean to imply your membership, but to make the point
that there is a fairly large group of 3Dfx users who's video card
preferences might as well be tattooed on their ***(implying the
permanence of said preferences, no more :).  The Rendition Mafia (and
affiliated disgruntled 3Dfx employees) is small potatos in comparison.
:)

"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was
nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into
a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

   Under those criteria, sure.

   Do I win anything, Jack?  :)

"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was
nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into
a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark

Win anything? Sure, Jeff! You too win a free copy of GPaL *and* my copy of
Pac Man. :)

Jack

www.RaceLive.com/GPaL

And I would be willing to send this person my old Herc T3D pci 8meg for a
free copy of GPaL.