rec.autos.simulators

Car Physics - Side Bite Part 2

Pat Dots

Car Physics - Side Bite Part 2

by Pat Dots » Thu, 06 Mar 2003 02:00:19

The other thread broke down into a discussion of kart setup and weight
transfer.  I'd like to concentrate on the side bite issue.

Paul Laidlaw pointed out that lateral force v. vertical load is not
linear (I was thinking of slip angle curves at low levels of slip).
But the force v. load curves I have seen (Gillespie) don't go to zero.
 The bottom of the curve starts at 200 lbs vertical load.  It is
approximately linear up to about 400 lbs.  Most karts weight less than
400 lbs total.  The most load any kart tire is ever likely to see is
200 lbs.  Unfortunately, I have not been able to find any actual kart
tire data.  Still, I think we can assume a linear load v. lateral
force curve up to 200 lbs.

If that's true, then there isn't any inherent advantage to balancing
the left/right load, is there?  The key to getting the most grip is to
have the right compound on the right side given the load while
cornering.

PD

Paul Laidla

Car Physics - Side Bite Part 2

by Paul Laidla » Thu, 06 Mar 2003 04:03:51

I doubt it's linear, a kart tyre is designed for a kart after all, it doesn't
need to take car loads, but it may well be close enough to linear
to make any advantage gained from limiting weight transfer
relatively unimportant given the other options.

    Paul

Pat Dots

Car Physics - Side Bite Part 2

by Pat Dots » Sat, 08 Mar 2003 04:59:35

There are two mechanisms by which tires generate grip.  One is
molecular adhesion, where the tires literally grip the track like
glue.  The other is hysteresis, where there is an energy loss in the
tire as it deforms while sliding over the surface of the track.

On dry dirt tracks, there probably isn't a lot of adhesion happening.
The grip is likely coming mostly from hysteresis.  When a dirt track
gets tacky, and adhesion becomes more of a factor, the kart could end
up with too much grip.  This would be a good explanation for "side
bite".

Has anyone ever seen a chart for hysteresis tire grip v. vertical
load?  Or, for that matter, what about a molecular adhesion grip v.
vertical load chart?

PD

J. Todd Wass

Car Physics - Side Bite Part 2

by J. Todd Wass » Sat, 08 Mar 2003 08:09:03

One SAE paper I read on tire heating, sliding velocity, and grip talked about
there also being a molecular adhesion portion to grip as you said.  It was,
however, considered so small that it could be disregarded, even on asphalt.  

That leaves basically "force" vs. slip angle or slip ratio; I've never seen or
would expect to see data where the two forces could be seperated.  The force is
caused by the distortion in the tire resulting from a portion of the contact
patch being unable to move for whatever reason as you already know.  

What causes it to stick?  What causes anything to stick?  The nature of
friction is still a bit of a mystery to scientists, but interpenetration of the
*** with surface irregularities in the pavement appears to be a noteworthy
factor in getting unusually high coefficients of grip.  This is especially
noticeable in RC foam tires, which operate the same way as full sized air
filled tires do as far as load sensitivity and so forth is concerned.  Softer
tires don't increase grip on smooth surfaces after a point, according to an
engineer I talked with.  Run it on a rough surface however, and you can keep
going softer and improve grip at the same time.

There are several sources where charts of tire grip vs. vertical load are
published.  Milliken's "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics" of course springs to mind
first.

Indeed, all data I've seen (which isn't much) shows a definite drop in
friction/grip coefficient with load.  If you are able to alter under/oversteer
noticeably by adjusting the front/rear stiffnesses in whatever four wheeled
vehicle you're talking about, whether it's a go-kart, Indycar, or even an RC
racer on foam tires, then you are observing the effects of this drop off.
Without load sensitivity, most of chassis tuning would do nothing.

Todd Wasson
Racing Software
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
My car sim
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Pat Dotso

Car Physics - Side Bite Part 2

by Pat Dotso » Sun, 09 Mar 2003 06:19:01


> One SAE paper I read on tire heating, sliding velocity, and grip talked about
> there also being a molecular adhesion portion to grip as you said.  It was,
> however, considered so small that it could be disregarded, even on asphalt.  

Really?  In Gillespie, he says that molecular adhesion account for
the majority of grip on a dry road.  On wet roads, there is almost
no adhesion, and whatever grip is available comes mainly from
hysteresis.

One other general point about kart setups.  It is easy to
set up a kart so that the left rear tire will lift going
around a corner.  Before I started racing, I would have
assumed that when that happened, the kart would spin, or
at least be loose.  The opposite is true.  For oval karts,
if you are lifting the LR wheel, the kart will be tight/
pushing.

The only explanation I can come up with is that karts
typically run 55% or more rear weight bias.  So, even
with all the rear weight on the RR, it still has more
grip than the front end combined.  But, I would expect
that the more you keep the LR planted on the ground,
then total grip at the rear would increase.  But it
doesn't.

Pat Dotson

J. Todd Wass

Car Physics - Side Bite Part 2

by J. Todd Wass » Sun, 09 Mar 2003 08:51:09

Hmm...  The paper didn't actually use the phrase "molecular adhesion," but
rather "adhesion," so perhaps Gillespie is using a different definition than
I'm thinking of.

Here's an exerpt from the paper:

(This paper was concerning development of a numerical tire model specifically
dealing with the relationships between tire heating, sliding velocity, and
grip.  The key here is that the focus of this is in the *sliding* portion of
the print.)

"The development of the contact model is based on studies of mechanical and
thermal effects in the contact interface.  This investigation is conducted on
the microscale, on which two different friction mechanisms can be
distinguished.  Hysteretic friction results from the internal damping of ***
in case of periodic excitation.  Therefore, the loss modulus is the decisive
characteristic of *** for this friction component.  As the energy
dissipation takes place in layers of the *** block adjacent to the contact
surface, hysteretic friction is a bulk effect."

"The second part of *** friction is adhesive friction.  It is a consequence
of inter*** bonds that are made up between the *** and the friction
surface on a molecular scale.  In case of a relative motion of the two friction
partners, these bonds are stretched and finally ruptured.  The stored bond
enery is dissipated.  Adhesive friction is the minor part of *** friction.
Hence, the characteristics of hysteretic friction are the basis for the
macroscopic contact model that will be briefly described in the following."

Later on the paper says it leaves out the adhesive friction analysis entirely
due to its relative insignificance.

It should be noted though that this is referring primarily to what is happening
in the portion of the print that is sliding, which in the case of a tire
operating at the limit, might very well be the majority of the contact patch or
a significant portion of it at least.  

I haven't read Gillespie's books, so can't comment on the relationship between
this and what he described.  Perhaps he was referring to the non-sliding region
of the contact patch, where perhaps the situation is reversed.  I haven't
thought or read about it enough yet to comment.

As I mentioned before, I work a bit with an engineer and a couple champion
1/8th scale gas RC drivers that have discussed the same effect with me.  These
cars behave opposite to what you just described.  They have a solid rear axle
(and front one-way bearings for selective 4WD) and also benefit from lifting
the rear wheel when increased oversteer is desired.  Note though that "lifting
the inside rear wheel" probably means "lowering the load on the inside rear
wheel."  

They typically adjust this on the RC cars by altering caster and are knowingly
altering the inside rear load, or "lifting" it in varying amounts.  Increasing
caster causes more inside rear lift, and the car responds with increased
oversteer on throttle (and subsequent understeer off throttle due to higher
aligning torque fighting the servos and possibly bending the suspension a bit.)

This sounds to be the exact opposite of what you've described with go-karts,
which itself is the opposite of what I've heard other people say.  I'm a bit
confused :-)  From other's descriptions, it seemed that leaning outside the
corner or altering the setup in a way that increased inside rear tire lift
caused an increase in oversteer on throttle, the same effect that we see in RC
cars.

I'll take your word for it though :-)

Locked axles are a little tricky to make generalizations about because there a
couple of things happening like you described.  First of all, the solid axle is
trying to straighten the car, causing understeer of course.  The car, generally
speaking, should probably have increased understeer with less load transfer
from this effect as you described.  

On the other hand, this forward/rearward force that's being developed (causing
understeer) uses up some of the friction circle, leaving less side force.  So
whether reducing lateral load transfer (less wheel lift) at the rear causes
understeer or oversteer depends on which one of these two effects dominates.
I'd think that this would depend to a large degree on the rear track width /
center of gravity height ratio.  It could theoretically go either way.  With
the extremely low CG RC cars, inside rear lift is generally (always?) an
oversteer effect on-throttle.  I'd imagine the CG is in proportion much higher
on a go-kart, so perhaps that would explain why the opposite might be
happening.

I'm no expert, mind you, but that's my take on it right now :-P

Todd Wasson
Racing Software
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
My car sim
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Paul Laidla

Car Physics - Side Bite Part 2

by Paul Laidla » Sun, 09 Mar 2003 09:28:04

Which is also one way of adjusting it on karts, you can also adjust the amount of
rear axle flex which will affect camber on the loaded wheel, I imagine
on an RC car (I assume a stiff axle?) you will create positve camber by
unloading the inside wheel, this may explain your oversteer?

It only causes understeer under braking (rear wheels only) or on a trailing
throttle, under power it improves turn in. I notice people really struggle
to get hairpins right on karts at first because the effect of throttle/braking
whilst turning is not the same as your average road car.

Well, that does happen on a kart but that is because the forward force
vector is in effect offset from the centre of the kart (to the more loaded
rear wheel), it isn't the effect we were (or me anyway!) originally talking about.

I'm not sure I'm explaining myself very well.

    Paul

Pat Dotso

Car Physics - Side Bite Part 2

by Pat Dotso » Sun, 09 Mar 2003 10:06:26


>>Really?  In Gillespie, he says that molecular adhesion account for
>>the majority of grip on a dry road.  On wet roads, there is almost
>>no adhesion, and whatever grip is available comes mainly from
>>hysteresis.

> Hmm...  The paper didn't actually use the phrase "molecular adhesion," but
> rather "adhesion," so perhaps Gillespie is using a different definition than
> I'm thinking of.

(clip)

 >

Gillespie's book isn't really about racing, so his comments
might apply to conditions at well under the limits of the
tire.  The section on this subject is very short.  I don't
have RCVD, what do they say?

Caster is used on sprint and oval kart in the same way
you describe above.

Oval karts operate differently than sprint karts, mainly
because of rear tire stagger.  With no stagger, I'm sure
that lifting the IR is faster.  But, with stagger, you
don't have to lift the wheel because the tires aren't
fighting against each other.  Also, in the particular
form of kart racing I do, our motors are only producing
about 9HP.  Getting on the throttle doesn't have a lot
of affect :)

CG to track width ratio for oval karts is about 3:10
(12" vcg, 40" track width).  Not sure how that compares
to other vehicles.

PD

Matt

Car Physics - Side Bite Part 2

by Matt » Sun, 09 Mar 2003 17:17:14



That phenomenon is quite similair to putting one tire onto the grass, I
remember I had a rather fun discussion with a certain mr. Cassidy here in
the days of N2 because it did exactly the opposite. It would spin into the
turn if you had the inside front on the grass...

I would expect the vehicle behaviour to vary in such a situation depending
on the rear suspension being stiff/solid axle/LSD/independent? Or would it?

Matt Knutsen

J. Todd Wass

Car Physics - Side Bite Part 2

by J. Todd Wass » Mon, 10 Mar 2003 16:40:49

Interesting about the rear axle flex adjustment.  

The RC cars have independant front and rear double wishbone suspension systems,
so there isn't a similar adjustment for them.  They have two halfshafts for a
driveshaft that rotate at the same speed, so it acts like a solid axle in that
regard.

I suppose you're right about the positive camber coming from the caster
adjustment.  However, the simulator is ignoring camber right now and the
oversteer effect is still there.

- Show quoted text -

Oh, ok.  So you're seeing the same effect on the karts as we see in RC.

- Show quoted text -

Oh, ok.  I didn't read the other thread, so maybe I'm off on a different
tangent :-)

Todd Wasson
Racing Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.com
My car sim
http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

J. Todd Wass

Car Physics - Side Bite Part 2

by J. Todd Wass » Mon, 10 Mar 2003 16:59:36

I don't recall reading anything about this in RCVD.  Perhaps Gillespie's
comments are referring to behavior well before the limit.  I don't now.

Good point :-)

- Show quoted text -

Production cars are typically in the 20-25" vcg, 50-60" track width range, I
think, so the CG is a bit higher in general in comparison to the track width.
The RC cars are about 20-25mm vcg with approximately 265mm track width, which
is a very low ratio.  (Amazingly enough these cars can flip sideways when
traction is really good :-))

Todd Wasson
Racing Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.com
My car sim
http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

DAVID J ROBINSO

Car Physics - Side Bite Part 2

by DAVID J ROBINSO » Tue, 11 Mar 2003 23:35:21



Every RC I have ever had from 12 scale electric to 1/8 scale gas had a diff.
They would be terrible without it.

Dave

J. Todd Wass

Car Physics - Side Bite Part 2

by J. Todd Wass » Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:05:23

The solid axle rears I'm referring to are on the 4WD cars with one-ways driving
the front wheels.

Todd Wasson
Racing Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.com
My car sim
http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

DAVID J ROBINSO

Car Physics - Side Bite Part 2

by DAVID J ROBINSO » Wed, 12 Mar 2003 11:59:39



The 1/8 scale gas car I had came with a rear diff and front diff.  It did
have one way bearings to only allow the fronts to drive when the rears rpm
ellisped the fronts.

Dave

J. Todd Wass

Car Physics - Side Bite Part 2

by J. Todd Wass » Wed, 12 Mar 2003 12:21:51

Oh, ok.  Yes, there are a lot of ways to do things.  You can stick one-ways and
diffs just about anywhere you want, I suppose.

Todd Wasson
Racing Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.com
My car sim
http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm


rec.autos.simulators is a usenet newsgroup formed in December, 1993. As this group was always unmoderated there may be some spam or off topic articles included. Some links do point back to racesimcentral.net as we could not validate the original address. Please report any pages that you believe warrant deletion from this archive (include the link in your email). RaceSimCentral.net is in no way responsible and does not endorse any of the content herein.