rec.autos.simulators

Did you know, that Psygnosis plans to release F1 for the PC with no
***pit view, and without a detailed setup menu, as we are used to with
GP2.  I just confirmed this by E mail, and I urge everyone who has been
waiting for this game to let them know, that we would really like to see
the above mentioned items implemented, so it can whip the pants off GP2.

This is the only game that has the potential to put Geoff Crammond's
***ing eyes down his pants, so that he can watch Psygnosis kick the ***
out of him and his incomplete attempt to rip us off with Gp2.  Contrary
to popular belief, Microprose does not have the monopoly  on creating
good F1 sims.  Any other respectable company with less resources, can
come up with a superior product to GP2, in less time, and without so many
shortcomings.

******Its not a fact that nobody can beat Microprose my son, it is just
that we've been sold a bunch of snakeoil, and we willingly worship it as
the ultimate panacea.**********

Phil.

This is the only game that has the potential to put Geoff Crammond's
***ing eyes down his pants

Insightful, but don't forget about Starting Grid!  Psygnosis F1 game
will be a arcade style game, whereas Starting grid will be a
simulator.  

Check out the starting grid sim at:

http://www.racesimcentral.net/~salmon/index.htm

YOU WILL BE IMPRESSED WITH THE SIM

Chris

its not exactly a monopoly, and its not exactly microprose, but it
seems, that geoff crammond is the only one who can create feeling for a
car in a simulation on a computer.

you mean YOUR company, together with good old david gary ? well go
ahead, i'm waiting for the proove !

addie :(

i hate these big-mouthed jerks

|| This is the only game that has the potential to put Geoff Crammond's
|| ***ing eyes down his pants

| Insightful, but don't forget about Starting Grid!  Psygnosis F1 game
| will be a arcade style game, whereas Starting grid will be a
| simulator.  

I have to disagree- I think Psygnosis' F1 (for Playstation only at
present) is *not* an arcade game, and it is easily one of the best
sims on the market today. It is a different sort of sim, with
different criteria, from GP2. The focus in it is track exactness, car
physics model, and achieving a view identical to what you as audience
see from an onboard camera, down to the Tag Heur splits. GP2's focus
in on user configurability, AI, and driving model. They are apples and
oranges, but both still sims. If you are used to one, the other seems
weird at first

GP2 is not perfect- the "canned spins" and the fact that all car makes
drive the same (unlike P's F1), and more.   Psygnosis'  F1, OTOH,  has
no crashes and, goddam it, there are no mirrors.  I think it comes
down to resource managment- you can't do everything, and each
programming team kept in focus what each thought was critical to their
sim. For example, a "crash" in an F1 car is the end- no need to do a
dashing portrayal of it. If Psygnosis wanted to do a crash, *they
certainly know how to do it.* Ever seen their arcade games,
Destruction Derby One or Two!?

I just wish their were mirrors. I use the reverse view all the time,
but it isn;'t the same. It is the critical piece left out of the
program. Especially with the AI being *so* absolutely agressive.
They'll force you off the track, and you don't always know they are
there. I get a competitive sense in P's F1 that I never experienced in
GP2- I just wish I could see the bastards coming!

The game was created with an F1 team (I forgot which one) as
consultants- the team *must* have pointed out the difficulties of
driving without mirrors. All I can figure is that from Psygnosis' sim
point of view, creating the nearly perfect illusion of what we see on
Television when we watch a race was more important, and you don't have
mirrors in that view.

But for track exactness, *nobody* can touch Psygnosis' F1 presently,
it is orders of magnitude more detailed than anything on any home
platform. I figure F1 teams will use it to refresh their knowledge of
the season's tracks for the coming year.

| Check out the starting grid sim at:

| http://www.racesimcentral.net/~salmon/index.htm

| YOU WILL BE IMPRESSED WITH THE SIM

Thanks for the tip, I will check it out. Wait a minute- I  downloaded
some F1 sim 2 weeks ago without a name already- I think maybe this was
it. Yes, it looked pretty good, if that was it. Looked like GP2, but
GP2 still seemed better to me, but I'll give it more of a chance when
they finish it. It certainly ahd a loing way to go in the demo. My car
wouldn't move,a dn ti took 1/2 hour to set up their directories
correctly!

| Chris

| >Did you know, that Psygnosis plans to release F1 for the PC with no
| >cockpit view, and without a detailed setup menu, as we are used to with
| >GP2.  I just confirmed this by E mail, and I urge everyone who has been
| >waiting for this game to let them know, that we would really like to see
| >the above mentioned items implemented, so it can whip the pants off GP2.

The two sims are apples and oranges, as I just described in a reply to
a later message (below yours). But both are sims. Psygnosis' one is
obsessed with creating a perfect simulation of what you see from the
TV when you watch a F1 race, Tag Heur splits, no mirrors, access
roads, temporary equipment,  etc. GP2 is one of those "be the chief
mechanic, be the pit crew,  be the manager and also be the pilot"
sorts of sims, more in the Papyrus tradition. Both F1 sims have great
driving models. I have to admit that (IMO) Psygnosis simulates the
tracks more closely... it is sort of miraculous what they do, and the
incredible speed they do it in, in fact. Unlike with their arcade
games, Psygnosis opts from doing any crashes at all, probably to
reserve resources. That is fine with me. I just wish they let me
choose to ruin their perfect sim by adding some mirrors...

| >This is the only game that has the potential to put Geoff Crammond's
| >***ing eyes down his pants, so that he can watch Psygnosis kick the ***
| >out of him and his incomplete attempt to rip us off with Gp2.  Contrary
| >to popular belief, Microprose does not have the monopoly  on creating
| >good F1 sims.  Any other respectable company with less resources, can
| >come up with a superior product to GP2, in less time, and without so many
| >shortcomings.

Hey, I have no problem with Crammond, and I love GP2- praised the
heavens when it finally came out! Psygnosis is just another step in
the evolution- and equally brilliant, in my opinion. Shockingly
amazing track simulations, including the rain simulation. I bought the
Playstation simply to have this F1, and I would do it again in a
minute, particularly now that there is also NASCAR (papyrus) out for
the platform too. They blow away my computer for speed; saved me from
a $2500 dollar computer upgrade! Because, after all, we only need new
computers to play games- right!?!

BTW, Notice how *both* GP2 and F1 have a very, very irritating menu
systems? What is with these brilliant F1 programmers!?! Must they
require you to click, for example, a "Race Abandoned" message? AHH!

| What makes you think that Geoff Cramond had more resourses than (SONY
| owned) Pysgnosis ?

Bizarre/Psygnosis, to be exact. Isn't Sony supposedly angry with
Psygnosis for taking off on their own? I have only read scant info on
it; I think maybe they are split or perhaps just enstranged now.

Incomplete?  Shortcomings?  Please justify your complaints.  I have
heard no sutch things concerning GP2.

BTW, F1 is VREY VERY bad, at least if you are looking for a sim.  It has
no yellow, red, or black flags.  You can not crash out of a race, the AI
is not capable of taking a turn 2 cars wide they will just run you off
the road, if your front wing is knocked off turing radius improves and
your lap times go down, you can stop for turns by slamming into cars at
150+ MPH and you will come to a gentle stop thus this is the best method
for braknig, some of the AI cars never pit, some of the AI cars pit
every lap for as many as 10 laps straight, and the thing that bugs me
the most you can't blow the engine no matter how much you over-rev it.

Now that is how you justify complaints!

Depends what you are looking for in a sim. In many respects, it
simulates better than anything on the market- track detail and
precision is orders of magnitude beyond anything else out, actual
modelling of drive characteristics of different team's cars, excellent
rain simulation.

True, if that bothers you. I sure wish the AI would actually make
mistakes on occasion, or lose an engine.

I don't exactly know what you mean.  Racing on the hardest level, you
lose 2 or three positions if you take a turn wrong, much less "hit"
anything. I guess you're on the "honor system" if you "crash."

Rule of thumb: don't take a turn two a*** in F1. This isn't NASCAR;
this is open-wheel "chicken."

The AI is *very* agressive, more than any other sim out there. They
really get on my nerves when they take me out from behind, but I have
to admit that is is always because I've held a bad (sloppy) line
through the turn.

Have you won a race at full strength in this manner?

Not if you are interested in a simulation. I mean, I generally try to
avoid "hitting" anything, because I am interested in winning a race
with skill. If I hit something in something I am taking seriously,
especially if I "lose a wing", I generally quit the race. Unlike
NASCAR, only the first 6 positions matter, and you make a mistake, and
you are generally out of the running.

Blow an engine by "over-revving" it? I didn't think that was permitted
in Formula One! They have all sorts of limiting devices, I thought.

Anyway, none of these things are big problems for me, none nearly as
serious as GP2's "canned spin." Now that stupid 180 at any sort of
mistake is absurd.

I think you missed F1's real problem: no mirrors.

I think they got upset when Psygnosis released Saturn stuff (loophole
in the contract stuff I think), however they do still own them ...

Phil.

A good tip is to turn down the engine sound & turn up the tyre noise as
this gives much better feedback on how the tyres are gripping.

Cheers,
Richard

it's very shallow...a good arcade blast but in simulation terms (which is
what F1GP2 is) it sucks...stick with your consoles!>>

Its more than an arcade blast, its a pretty good sim as well.  And before
you say "in simulation terms it sucks", let me ask you:

a) Which F1 tracks are more up to date and more accurate to the real
thing:  F1 or F1GP2?

b) Why is it that in F1GP2 if you drive a Sauber you can outrun a
Williams?  Real accurate....

Randy

| >******Its not a fact that nobody can beat Microprose my son, it is just
| >that we've been sold a bunch of snakeoil, and we willingly worship it as
| >the ultimate panacea.**********

| Then why hasn't anybody done it? It's not as if there wouldn't be a
| market for it! I've got F1 on the Playstation and compared with F1GP2
| it's very shallow...a good arcade blast but in simulation terms (which
| is what F1GP2 is) it sucks...stick with your consoles!

This is not true, and it is not fair. Psygnosis' F1 is a different
kind of sim, as explained eralier in this thread. In terms of track
simulation, *GP2 can't touch it*, it is simply light years ahead of
the simplified tracks of GP2 or anything by Papyrus. And it's
*driving* model for true racing (not demolition derby) is at least as
good as GP2's, particularly when you figure in the A)canned spin in
GP2 that we all have to work around, and B) the fact that different
car makes in GP2 all drive the same. GP2 is more configurable... but
then, do I always want to be the chief engineer/manager/pit crew AND
pilot? When I do, I do GP2, but when I just want to have an ultra-real
visual driving experience, I do Psygnosis' F1.

I like and use both sims, but if people are going to trash PSygnosis'
one, I am going to have to keep on pointing out that GP2 is *not* a
perfect sim. We're all just used to it now, and it is OK to have
developed a certain affection for it. There is simply no point in
trashing Psygnosis' F1, it is an amazing sim.

And let's face it, a few tweaks in Psygnosis', and could esily have
all the configurable features of GP2. Even the most recent
Playstatiopn demo I saw of the sim showed a Psygnosis with a fuel
indicator and tach... I asked the manager what this was all about, he
didn't know.

I did notice GP2 is now handing out demo disks by the cart load- they
realize that Psygnosis' F1 is a serious threat. And it is- it's first
week of *playstation* sales in Europe blew everything else off the map
for first week sales,  even Resident Evil, *even Quake for P.C.*, and
it's total sales were approaching GP2's total sales.

Why isn't everyone overjoyed that there is a totally different kind of
F1 sim, also licensed by FIA,  out there, and not just a GP2 rip off
(like all the reast appear to be)? I wish indycar would be so lucky.

I'm not trying to put down F1, as it does what it sets out to do very
well. It just doesn't set out to do the same thing as GP2.

Well, GP2 also blew away everything at the time of its release and was
the fastest selling CD-ROM game of all time in the UK (until F1 took that
title on its release <g>).

But you're right, F1 is a major competitor to GP2. It is far closer to
what the general public want. Let's face it, most people aren't prepared
to put in the time necessary to master the intricacies of GP2 and,
indeed, why should they?

For those that want the most realistic open wheel driving model
available, GP2 is the obvious choice. Those who want a blast round the
track (which probably includes 95%+ of GP2 owners) should buy F1.

Cheers,
Richard

No***pit view in Psygnosis F1 puts it out of the simulation category
for me, no matter how good it looks.

Tony