rec.autos.simulators

>David G Fisher

>"Ben Coleman" <bencoleman_rem...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
>news:3acd1233@news.iprimus.com.au...
>> Jeez DGF, quit reposting the same freakin' excerpt!  F1 drivers have a
>SUPER
>> licence...for good reason.  They drive these cars regularly.  They don't
>> race FF and then jump in the F1 cars for a quick race!  Of _course_ the
>> driver behind is at fault if he rear ends someone in the braking zone.
>> Whether it was avoidable in the circumstance or not merely determines
>> whether it is tagged deliberate, stupid or just a racing incident.

>> No doubt red mist didn't help the situation.

>> Ben

>> David G Fisher wrote in message ...
>> >Nice try.

>> >Read the following, especially the section at the end which compares the
>> >braking distances between FF and F1 cars. If Montoya did brake early,
>> >Verstappen should not be blamed for what happened as you say. Your
>> >comparison between FF and F1 is not valid due to the tremendous
>differences
>> >between the two types of cars.

>> >Copied this from the AtlasF1 Bulletin Board

>>http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18227&perpage=40...
n
>> u
>> >mber=1 :
>> >Question: Is a F1 car similar to FFRenault, etc.?

>> >Russ Brooks (Experienced racer who drove the 1991 Ligier):
>> >"Actually, that is quite an interesting question. (Thanks JayWay for the
>> >prompt, I did mean to answer it!)

>> >The answer to your first question is a definite 'No'. The F1 car felt
>like
>> a
>> >totally different beast, Ross. Apart from the obvious power hike -
>> >increasing the speeds, the knock-on effects caused by the extra power
>took
>> >me by surprise.

>> >I (of course) knew that I had to "feel" my way around the throttle pedal
>> for
>> >a while to get used relative speed vs. braking zones, but nothing really
>> >prepared me for the "new" driving characteristics that the massive
>> downforce
>> >introduced.

>> >I had gotten used to throwing the FF cars around with a high degree of
>> >accuracy, and with this came a certain complacency.

>> >This allowed you to control powerslides and turn in to tight corners
>> earlier
>> >"knowing" that the car wasn't going to "answer" your command until 5
>metres
>> >later - a racing line that became 2nd knowledge as it were. The worst
>that
>> >could happen would be a slight running off of line - which would lose
you
>> >time but could be corrected by dabbing the throttle and throwing on
>> opposite
>> >lock - or if going too fast, just hammering the brakes and finding your
>way
>> >out of the run off area and back onto the track.

>> >But with the F1 car this set of rules (understandably) changed quite
>> >considerably. First off, the downforce effect was quite breathtaking. It
>> >meant that you turn the wheel 5mm into a bend and the car was responding
>> >yesterday (lol!) which was quite un-nerving but ultimately providing you
>> >with PREDICTABILITY. Something you didn't have in even the best set-up
FF
>> >cars.

>> >Secondly, and as an extension to the above characteristic, it meant
>apexing
>> >was fantastic. Chicanes could be attacked almost with abandon - knowing
>> that
>> >the car wouldn't argue with you. The "snap over" g-forces that drivers
>talk
>> >about soon become very apparent. The weight of your crash-lid and head
>> >increases to the point that when I achieved my first relatively quick
>> >direction snap - I thought my head would leave my body. My shoulders
were
>> >bruised when I got out the car due to the side-g's, and my knees had
>taken
>> a
>> >battering.

>> >So to conclude all the above "handling rules", I would say that you
could
>> >draw to within a "millimetre" the correct racing line (text-book, you
>could
>> >say) of any circuit, and follow it like a railtrack.

>> >Which brings me neatly on to the final major differences.

>> >The power increase is so huge, that even with enormous grip any small
>> >mistakes would be punished severely. For example, you could be doing
>30mph
>> >around a slow corner - hard lock, and where as in an FF car you would be
>> >used to giving the throttle 50% to pull you out of the corner, in an F1
>car
>> >(in 1st gear - soon learnt to use 2nd!) 20% throttle for the briefest
dab
>> >would spin you out of control.

>> >This applied to all corners. Even when the downforce effect is working
>hard
>> >around a 130mph bend, the slightest bit of, "whoops, maybe that didn't
>need

>> >full throttle in 4th out of there.." and you were in shit-soup!

>> >I had a few scary, "...oh dear, I'm heading into the tyre wall...help
>> >me...phew that was close..." moments...

>> >The other amazing difference, as I mentioned in the thread, was the
>brakes.
>> >I really couldn't comprehend how late you can brake into a corner
without
>> >losing control, in an F1 car.

>> >If you slammed the middle pedal hard to the floor at top speed in an
>FF1600
>> >(say 125mph) then you could expect the cars wheels to lock up and
>> obviously,
>> >without wheels turning, you have no control over where the car is going.
>If
>> >you left it too late then you went straight on - past the point of no
>> >return - only to release the brakes and spin sideways off the circuit.
>But,
>> >and a BIG BUT, you normally at this point had slowed so much that the
>> >run-off collected you - or you only nudged the tyre wall. But late in an
>> >FF1600 means 250metres from the 1st tight corner at the end of the
>> straight.
>> >This even gave you time to correct your line into the corner if you
>needed
>> >to!

>> >In an F1 car, you could brake from 190mph+ into a 30mph corner - change
>> from
>> >6th to 2nd - and NOT LOCK UP. All from 100metres or so. No room for,
>> >"...Shit!!! Wrong line." You had to get it right, or risk dying horribly
>in
>> >a tyre wall pizza.

>> >Quite a frightening learning experience, all in all.

>> >Just out of interest, I seem to remember only using full opposite lock
to
>> >get out of trouble, and this was on the first few laps. After that, if
>you
>> >had to use 'opp. lock' then you had done it wrong!

>> >Russ Brooks

>> >David G Fisher

>> >"Aviator" <S...@tter.com> wrote in message
>> >news:mX4z6.5372$VF3.439857@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...

>> >> David G Fisher <dav...@home.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:w4Uy6.23346$Os.5166726@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
>> >> > So if someone jams on the brakes right after the start, he won't get
>> any
>> >> > blame for the pileup that follows?

>> >> learn to read. I specifically mentioned THE BRAKING ZONE!!

>> >> > There is no set rule like you just described.

>> >> Again, your total lack of grasp of the English language is evident. I
>> >> clearly mentioned protocols and conventions, and not regulations or
>rules

>> >>  If someone does something
>> >> > completely unexpected like braking too early in F1, then they will
>> >deserve
>> >> > and receive some blame for what follows.

>> >> Braking a bit earlier is the norm for a driver having just made a
pass.
>> >But
>> >> never having been on a track, you wouldnt know that, would you??

>> >>  The braking distance in F1 is FAR
>> >> > different than in FF. It's a much different form of racing.

>> >> Again, your comment comes from a totally uninformed standpoint. The
>only
>> >> difference is technology and speed

>> >> Fisher, you are totally clueless. You are the kind of dodo who
believes
>> >that
>> >> if you happen to be faster than the driver in front of you, he should
>> give
>> >> way. Or if you rear end him because you happen to like to brake late,
>he
>> >is
>> >> at fault.
>> >> You are the kind of idiot, who, if he ever does race in real life,
>either
>> >> ends up dead or killing someone else, or banned for life.

>> >> > David G Fisher

>> >> > "Aviator" <S...@tter.com> wrote in message
>> >> > news:aTTy6.3332$VF3.318515@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>> >> > > Blue, I am a Formula Ford driver, and your opinion is your right,
>but
>> >so
>> >> > far
>> >> > > off the mark, it isn't even funny.

>> >> > > In the braking zone, no matter WHAT the circumstances, the driver
>at
>> >the
>> >> > > back has the RESPONSIBILITY to anticipate what the driver ahead of
>> him
>> >> > might
>> >> > > do. It is his responsibility NOT to hit the car in front of him.

>> >> > > The driver in front has the right to set the pace, and brake where
>he
>> >> sees
>> >> > > fit for a corner, and it is the driver behind him's responsibility
>to
>> >> > drive
>> >> > > AROUND him, not THROUGH him.

>> >> > > Your suggestion that Montoya might not be 'clean', as you put is
>the
>> >> most
>> >> > > stupid suggestion I have heard yet.

>> >> > > Rather get accurate information before you get into Monday morning
>> >> > > quarterbacking, than make the uninformed comments you have.

>> >> > > You are in no position to judge drivers, when you don't have a
clue
>> as
>> >> to
>> >> > > the protocols and conventions of driving on a racing circuit

>> >> > > Blues DeVille <bl...@-REMOVE-newmail.net> wrote in message
>> >> > > news:9af80p$h3r$1@news1.xs4all.nl...
>> >> > > > I wonder why this is such a hot issue? Why is it that everybody
>> >jumps
>> >> > > > on his feet as soon as something happens to Montoya?
>> >> > > > Did anybody hear is own comments after he returned to the pits,
>> >being
>> >> > > > interviewed by a Dutch reporter:
>> >> > > > "Well, these things happen, that's racing..."
>> >> > > > He didn't blame Verstappen right away, so i seriously doubt if
>he's

> You're right, the first part of my reply was wrong. I wasn't being too
> serious though with what I said about jamming on the brakes right after the
> start? How often do drivers do that?

> The second part of my reply was serious and is accurate. I said, "There is
> no set rule like you just described. If someone does something
> completely unexpected like braking too early in F1, then they will deserve
> and receive some blame for what follows. The braking distance in F1 is FAR
> different than in FF. It's a much different form of racing."

> Read the following, especially the section at the end which compares the
> braking distances between FF and F1 cars. If Montoya did brake early,
> Verstappen should not be blamed for what happened as Aviator says. His
> comparison between FF and F1 is not valid due to the tremendous differences
> between the two types of cars.

>Ben

> If people read the thread, I wouldn't have to repost the excerpt and keep
> answering the same questions.

>> > > Here in Holland we have this weird 'innocent untill proven guilty'
>> > > thingie..

>> > > Andre
>> >   I know, I know...I watch too much X Files...but, given the lack of
>> > any reason why one of the worlds best drivers would suddenly go ape and
>> > blast into another car, I can only conclude that either Rubens and Jos
>> drank
>> > the same
>> > Brazillian water or nobody wants to see Williams climb back on top.
>> > dave henrie

>> Dave, Dave............

>> Blaming either driver is stupid in the extreme. Obi Juan had a reason for
>> breaking earlier than usual, and Jos cannot be blamed for not anticipating
>> his action. However, it is a convention in ALL forms of racing that the
>> driver behind has the responsibility not to ram the car in front of him.
>> Thus it was Jos's ERROR in this regard that caused the accident.  That is
>> what as known as a racing incident. Both drivers are blameless as regards
>> intent or neglect

>According to the FIA, Jos was not blameless:
>http://www.atlasf1.com/news/report.php/id/4008/.html

> > If people read the thread, I wouldn't have to repost the excerpt and
keep
> > answering the same questions.

> Shut up david; you've had your say and most people with more than one
> brain cell disagree with you. Why don't you just admit you're wrong?
> You're not man enough that's why!

> Gerry

> "I'm completely alone in my views." -- David G Fisher

> I read that post previously, and thanks for reposting it again (and
> again, and again ;) ), it was a joy reading it once more.

> Most likely, in the FIA sporting regulations no such clear rules exist.
> I do believe, and this is from many accounts of drivers both on this
> board and interviews with F1 drivers, that there indeed exist
> conventions about this issue, meaning that the car behind is responsible
> for the collision. Most likely they are also written down somewhere, but
> as I wasn't able to find them, I won't claim that. On the other hand, as
> you mentioned, the driver in front must remain predictable (not more
> than one change of direction, for example).

> The fact that the F1 braking distances are shorter doesn't mean that the
> situation changes. It only means that the F1 drivers are required to
> have better reflexes and situational awareness, and that's why
> superlicences aren't granted easily (think Raikkonen (sp.?)).

> To the issue at hand; Montoya had absolutely no reason to brake early,
> therefore he most likely didn't, and considering the decision of the FIA
> to fine Verstappen instead of declaring it as a racing incident points
> to this being true. However, this doesn't mean that the two drivers
> didn't have vastly different braking points; playing any F1 sim will
> tell you that the braking point is a matter of mostly aerodynamic setup,
> tires, and the chassis. Also, considering that it was a corner preceeded
> by a long straight without a long one immediately after it, it favours
> different racing lines (early vs. late apex), which also then depends on
> the driver's style.

> All this leads to the fact that both drivers might have braked at
> exactly the same point as they normally did, or Verstappen even earlier,
> and they still collided as Jos was running too clos. This variance in
> braking point must be taken into account by the driver behind, even if
> it hampers his own line.

> Even if there is no written rule on this issue, it's clear that the
> driver in front cannot predict what the car behind *will* do, while the
> car behind can see what the car in front *did* do. See the difference?
> Just like on the road, the concept of safety distance exists in racing
> (it's not a rule, but a fact to be considered if you take reaction time
> into account), and it's up to the driver to tailor it to his or her
> reflexes, and the knowledge of the racing line of the car in the front,
> which Vertappen had no clue about as he wasn't following Montoya before,
> or be involved in and responsible for a crash.

> -Gregor

> > You're right, the first part of my reply was wrong. I wasn't being too
> > serious though with what I said about jamming on the brakes right after
the
> > start? How often do drivers do that?

> > The second part of my reply was serious and is accurate. I said, "There
is
> > no set rule like you just described. If someone does something
> > completely unexpected like braking too early in F1, then they will
deserve
> > and receive some blame for what follows. The braking distance in F1 is
FAR
> > different than in FF. It's a much different form of racing."

> > Read the following, especially the section at the end which compares the
> > braking distances between FF and F1 cars. If Montoya did brake early,
> > Verstappen should not be blamed for what happened as Aviator says. His
> > comparison between FF and F1 is not valid due to the tremendous differen
ces
> > between the two types of cars.

> David G Fisher

> > Hi David,

> > I read that post previously, and thanks for reposting it again (and
> > again, and again ;) ), it was a joy reading it once more.

> > Most likely, in the FIA sporting regulations no such clear rules exist.
> > I do believe, and this is from many accounts of drivers both on this
> > board and interviews with F1 drivers, that there indeed exist
> > conventions about this issue, meaning that the car behind is responsible
> > for the collision. Most likely they are also written down somewhere, but
> > as I wasn't able to find them, I won't claim that. On the other hand, as
> > you mentioned, the driver in front must remain predictable (not more
> > than one change of direction, for example).

> > The fact that the F1 braking distances are shorter doesn't mean that the
> > situation changes. It only means that the F1 drivers are required to
> > have better reflexes and situational awareness, and that's why
> > superlicences aren't granted easily (think Raikkonen (sp.?)).

> > To the issue at hand; Montoya had absolutely no reason to brake early,
> > therefore he most likely didn't, and considering the decision of the FIA
> > to fine Verstappen instead of declaring it as a racing incident points
> > to this being true. However, this doesn't mean that the two drivers
> > didn't have vastly different braking points; playing any F1 sim will
> > tell you that the braking point is a matter of mostly aerodynamic setup,
> > tires, and the chassis. Also, considering that it was a corner preceeded
> > by a long straight without a long one immediately after it, it favours
> > different racing lines (early vs. late apex), which also then depends on
> > the driver's style.

> > All this leads to the fact that both drivers might have braked at
> > exactly the same point as they normally did, or Verstappen even earlier,
> > and they still collided as Jos was running too clos. This variance in
> > braking point must be taken into account by the driver behind, even if
> > it hampers his own line.

> > Even if there is no written rule on this issue, it's clear that the
> > driver in front cannot predict what the car behind *will* do, while the
> > car behind can see what the car in front *did* do. See the difference?
> > Just like on the road, the concept of safety distance exists in racing
> > (it's not a rule, but a fact to be considered if you take reaction time
> > into account), and it's up to the driver to tailor it to his or her
> > reflexes, and the knowledge of the racing line of the car in the front,
> > which Vertappen had no clue about as he wasn't following Montoya before,
> > or be involved in and responsible for a crash.

> > -Gregor

> > > You're right, the first part of my reply was wrong. I wasn't being too
> > > serious though with what I said about jamming on the brakes right
after
> the
> > > start? How often do drivers do that?

> > > The second part of my reply was serious and is accurate. I said,
"There
> is
> > > no set rule like you just described. If someone does something
> > > completely unexpected like braking too early in F1, then they will
> deserve
> > > and receive some blame for what follows. The braking distance in F1 is
> FAR
> > > different than in FF. It's a much different form of racing."

> > > Read the following, especially the section at the end which compares
the
> > > braking distances between FF and F1 cars. If Montoya did brake early,
> > > Verstappen should not be blamed for what happened as Aviator says. His
> > > comparison between FF and F1 is not valid due to the tremendous
differen
> ces
> > > between the two types of cars.

> David G Fisher

> > > So if someone jams on the brakes right after the start, he won't get
any
> > > blame for the pileup that follows?

> > learn to read. I specifically mentioned THE BRAKING ZONE!!

> > > There is no set rule like you just described.

> > Again, your total lack of grasp of the English language is evident. I
> > clearly mentioned protocols and conventions, and not regulations or
rules

> >  If someone does something
> > > completely unexpected like braking too early in F1, then they will
> deserve
> > > and receive some blame for what follows.

> > Braking a bit earlier is the norm for a driver having just made a pass.
> But
> > never having been on a track, you wouldnt know that, would you??

> >  The braking distance in F1 is FAR
> > > different than in FF. It's a much different form of racing.

> > Again, your comment comes from a totally uninformed standpoint. The only
> > difference is technology and speed

> > Fisher, you are totally clueless. You are the kind of dodo who believes
> that
> > if you happen to be faster than the driver in front of you, he should
give
> > way. Or if you rear end him because you happen to like to brake late, he
> is
> > at fault.
> > You are the kind of idiot, who, if he ever does race in real life,
either
> > ends up dead or killing someone else, or banned for life.

> > > David G Fisher

> > > > Blue, I am a Formula Ford driver, and your opinion is your right,
but
> so
> > > far
> > > > off the mark, it isn't even funny.

> > > > In the braking zone, no matter WHAT the circumstances, the driver at
> the
> > > > back has the RESPONSIBILITY to anticipate what the driver ahead of
him
> > > might
> > > > do. It is his responsibility NOT to hit the car in front of him.

> > > > The driver in front has the right to set the pace, and brake where
he
> > sees
> > > > fit for a corner, and it is the driver behind him's responsibility
to
> > > drive
> > > > AROUND him, not THROUGH him.

> > > > Your suggestion that Montoya might not be 'clean', as you put is the
> > most
> > > > stupid suggestion I have heard yet.

> > > > Rather get accurate information before you get into Monday morning
> > > > quarterbacking, than make the uninformed comments you have.

> > > > You are in no position to judge drivers, when you don't have a clue
as
> > to
> > > > the protocols and conventions of driving on a racing circuit

> > > > > I wonder why this is such a hot issue? Why is it that everybody
> jumps
> > > > > on his feet as soon as something happens to Montoya?
> > > > > Did anybody hear is own comments after he returned to the pits,
> being
> > > > > interviewed by a Dutch reporter:
> > > > > "Well, these things happen, that's racing..."
> > > > > He didn't blame Verstappen right away, so i seriously doubt if
he's
> > > > > clean himself on this one....

> > > > > Blues

> > > > > >   What would settle it, once and for all, would be for the two
> teams
> > > to
> > > > > > release the
> > > > > > telemetry tapes for the last few laps up to the ramming.  If
Jos'
> > foot
> > > > was
> > > > > > buried in the throttle AFTER swing behind JPM, then it would be
> > pretty
> > > > > > obvious.
> > > > > >   Now as to Jos thinking JPM had used the brakes early...that
> could
> > be
> > > > > > true...from
> > > > > > Jos' perspective.  JPM and his teammate were way faster down the
> > > > straight
> > > > > > than anyone
> > > > > > else.  It would make perfect sense that the Williams braking
point
> > was
> > > a
> > > > > > little earlier than the rest of the slugs.
> > > > > >   But I won't let JV off the hook so easy...until we see the lap
> > > > > telemetry,
> > > > > > I'll continue to
> > > > > > suggest he Rammed JPM, not accidentily made contact.
> > > > > > dave henrie


> > > > > > > On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:47:53 -0700, "Sideshow Bob"

> > > > > > > >I'd have loved to see a side-shot or (better) Verstappen's
> in-car
> > > > > camera.
> > > > > > > >It's so hard to judge what happened from the replays.

> > > > > > > >Regardless, I hadn't been that e***d to see a driver
leading
> a
> > F1
> > > > > race
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > >a long time :-(

> > > > > > > >Dale.

> > > > > > > Same here Dale.. when Montoya passed Schumi and then showed
him
> > some
> > > > > > > real racing, I went crazy.. what a race...

> > > > > > > Andre

> > I don't know if the information from the Arrows team is true, but
Remco's
> > post sounded interesting.

> > "Hehe, but then Rubens didn't make any mistake? He wasn't fined....
> > BTW, Arrows claimed that telemetry showed that Jos braked 35 meters
> > earlier, with a speed 65 Kmh less as in the previous lap....

> > IMO....Jos made a mistake, but Montoya wasn't totally clean either...."

> David, you need to get your perspective straightened out. Your response is
> clearly emotional rather than logical, given the body of evidence in the
> incident, and the logic involved.

> I somehow suspect that you will always blame Montoya for the incident, no
> matter what is proven to you.

> I really dont see the point debating a person who lives in denial of clear
> facts

> > David G Fisher

> > > Hi David,

> > > I read that post previously, and thanks for reposting it again (and
> > > again, and again ;) ), it was a joy reading it once more.

> > > Most likely, in the FIA sporting regulations no such clear rules
exist.
> > > I do believe, and this is from many accounts of drivers both on this
> > > board and interviews with F1 drivers, that there indeed exist
> > > conventions about this issue, meaning that the car behind is
responsible
> > > for the collision. Most likely they are also written down somewhere,
but
> > > as I wasn't able to find them, I won't claim that. On the other hand,
as
> > > you mentioned, the driver in front must remain predictable (not more
> > > than one change of direction, for example).

> > > The fact that the F1 braking distances are shorter doesn't mean that
the
> > > situation changes. It only means that the F1 drivers are required to
> > > have better reflexes and situational awareness, and that's why
> > > superlicences aren't granted easily (think Raikkonen (sp.?)).

> > > To the issue at hand; Montoya had absolutely no reason to brake early,
> > > therefore he most likely didn't, and considering the decision of the
FIA
> > > to fine Verstappen instead of declaring it as a racing incident points
> > > to this being true. However, this doesn't mean that the two drivers
> > > didn't have vastly different braking points; playing any F1 sim will
> > > tell you that the braking point is a matter of mostly aerodynamic
setup,
> > > tires, and the chassis. Also, considering that it was a corner
preceeded
> > > by a long straight without a long one immediately after it, it favours
> > > different racing lines (early vs. late apex), which also then depends
on
> > > the driver's style.

> > > All this leads to the fact that both drivers might have braked at
> > > exactly the same point as they normally did, or Verstappen even
earlier,
> > > and they still collided as Jos was running too clos. This variance in
> > > braking point must be taken into account by the driver behind, even if
> > > it hampers his own line.

> > > Even if there is no written rule on this issue, it's clear that the
> > > driver in front cannot predict what the car behind *will* do, while
the
> > > car behind can see what the car in front *did* do. See the difference?
> > > Just like on the road, the concept of safety distance exists in racing
> > > (it's not a rule, but a fact to be considered if you take reaction
time
> > > into account), and it's up to the driver to tailor it to his or her
> > > reflexes, and the knowledge of the racing line of the car in the
front,
> > > which Vertappen had no clue about as he wasn't following Montoya
before,
> > > or be involved in and responsible for a crash.

> > > -Gregor

> > > > You're right, the first part of my reply was wrong. I wasn't being
too
> > > > serious though with what I said about jamming on the brakes right
> after
> > the
> > > > start? How often do drivers do that?

> > > > The second part of my reply was serious and is accurate. I said,
> "There
> > is
> > > > no set rule like you just described. If someone does something
> > > > completely unexpected like braking too early in F1, then they will
> > deserve
> > > > and receive some blame for what follows. The braking distance in F1
is
> > FAR
> > > > different than in FF. It's a much different form of racing."

> > > > Read the following, especially the section at the end which compares
> the
> > > > braking distances between FF and F1 cars. If Montoya did brake
early,
> > > > Verstappen should not be blamed for what happened as Aviator says.
His
> > > > comparison between FF and F1 is not valid due to the tremendous
> differen
> > ces
> > > > between the two types of cars.

>> IMO....Jos made a mistake, but Montoya wasn't totally clean either...."

>David, you need to get your perspective straightened out. Your response is
>clearly emotional rather than logical, given the body of evidence in the
>incident, and the logic involved.

>I somehow suspect that you will always blame Montoya for the incident, no
>matter what is proven to you.

> >According to the FIA, Jos was not blameless:
> >http://www.atlasf1.com/news/report.php/id/4008/.html

> Hehe, but then Rubens didn't make any mistake? He wasn't fined....
> BTW, Arrows claimed that telemetry showed that Jos braked 35 meters
> earlier, with a speed 65 Kmh less as in the previous lap....

> IMO....Jos made a mistake, but Montoya wasn't totally clean either....