-Gregor
> So if someone jams on the brakes right after the start, he won't get any
> blame for the pileup that follows?
> > In the braking zone, no matter WHAT the circumstances, the driver at the
> > back has the RESPONSIBILITY to anticipate what the driver ahead of him
> might
> > do. It is his responsibility NOT to hit the car in front of him.
The second part of my reply was serious and is accurate. I said, "There is
no set rule like you just described. If someone does something
completely unexpected like braking too early in F1, then they will deserve
and receive some blame for what follows. The braking distance in F1 is FAR
different than in FF. It's a much different form of racing."
Read the following, especially the section at the end which compares the
braking distances between FF and F1 cars. If Montoya did brake early,
Verstappen should not be blamed for what happened as Aviator says. His
comparison between FF and F1 is not valid due to the tremendous differences
between the two types of cars.
Copied this from the AtlasF1 Bulletin Board
http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18227&perpage=40...
mber=1 :
Question: Is a F1 car similar to FFRenault, etc.?
Russ Brooks (Experienced racer who drove the 1991 Ligier):
"Actually, that is quite an interesting question. (Thanks JayWay for the
prompt, I did mean to answer it!)
The answer to your first question is a definite 'No'. The F1 car felt like a
totally different beast, Ross. Apart from the obvious power hike -
increasing the speeds, the knock-on effects caused by the extra power took
me by surprise.
I (of course) knew that I had to "feel" my way around the throttle pedal for
a while to get used relative speed vs. braking zones, but nothing really
prepared me for the "new" driving characteristics that the massive downforce
introduced.
I had gotten used to throwing the FF cars around with a high degree of
accuracy, and with this came a certain complacency.
This allowed you to control powerslides and turn in to tight corners earlier
"knowing" that the car wasn't going to "answer" your command until 5 metres
later - a racing line that became 2nd knowledge as it were. The worst that
could happen would be a slight running off of line - which would lose you
time but could be corrected by dabbing the throttle and throwing on opposite
lock - or if going too fast, just hammering the brakes and finding your way
out of the run off area and back onto the track.
But with the F1 car this set of rules (understandably) changed quite
considerably. First off, the downforce effect was quite breathtaking. It
meant that you turn the wheel 5mm into a bend and the car was responding
yesterday (lol!) which was quite un-nerving but ultimately providing you
with PREDICTABILITY. Something you didn't have in even the best set-up FF
cars.
Secondly, and as an extension to the above characteristic, it meant apexing
was fantastic. Chicanes could be attacked almost with abandon - knowing that
the car wouldn't argue with you. The "snap over" g-forces that drivers talk
about soon become very apparent. The weight of your crash-lid and head
increases to the point that when I achieved my first relatively quick
direction snap - I thought my head would leave my body. My shoulders were
bruised when I got out the car due to the side-g's, and my knees had taken a
battering.
So to conclude all the above "handling rules", I would say that you could
draw to within a "millimetre" the correct racing line (text-book, you could
say) of any circuit, and follow it like a railtrack.
Which brings me neatly on to the final major differences.
The power increase is so huge, that even with enormous grip any small
mistakes would be punished severely. For example, you could be doing 30mph
around a slow corner - hard lock, and where as in an FF car you would be
used to giving the throttle 50% to pull you out of the corner, in an F1 car
(in 1st gear - soon learnt to use 2nd!) 20% throttle for the briefest dab
would spin you out of control.
This applied to all corners. Even when the downforce effect is working hard
around a 130mph bend, the slightest bit of, "whoops, maybe that didn't need
full throttle in 4th out of there.." and you were in shit-soup!
I had a few scary, "...oh dear, I'm heading into the tyre wall...help
me...phew that was close..." moments...
The other amazing difference, as I mentioned in the thread, was the brakes.
I really couldn't comprehend how late you can brake into a corner without
losing control, in an F1 car.
If you slammed the middle pedal hard to the floor at top speed in an FF1600
(say 125mph) then you could expect the cars wheels to lock up and obviously,
without wheels turning, you have no control over where the car is going. If
you left it too late then you went straight on - past the point of no
return - only to release the brakes and spin sideways off the circuit. But,
and a BIG BUT, you normally at this point had slowed so much that the
run-off collected you - or you only nudged the tyre wall. But late in an
FF1600 means 250metres from the 1st tight corner at the end of the straight.
This even gave you time to correct your line into the corner if you needed
to!
In an F1 car, you could brake from 190mph+ into a 30mph corner - change from
6th to 2nd - and NOT LOCK UP. All from 100metres or so. No room for,
"...Shit!!! Wrong line." You had to get it right, or risk dying horribly in
a tyre wall pizza.
Quite a frightening learning experience, all in all.
Just out of interest, I seem to remember only using full opposite lock to
get out of trouble, and this was on the first few laps. After that, if you
had to use 'opp. lock' then you had done it wrong!
Russ Brooks
> -Gregor
> > So if someone jams on the brakes right after the start, he won't get any
> > blame for the pileup that follows?
> > > In the braking zone, no matter WHAT the circumstances, the driver at
the
> > > back has the RESPONSIBILITY to anticipate what the driver ahead of him
> > might
> > > do. It is his responsibility NOT to hit the car in front of him.
You sir are always one to take things from sublime to ridiculous!
MS
> There is no set rule like you just described. If someone does something
> completely unexpected like braking too early in F1, then they will deserve
> and receive some blame for what follows. The braking distance in F1 is FAR
> different than in FF. It's a much different form of racing.
> David G Fisher
> > Blue, I am a Formula Ford driver, and your opinion is your right, but so
> far
> > off the mark, it isn't even funny.
> > In the braking zone, no matter WHAT the circumstances, the driver at the
> > back has the RESPONSIBILITY to anticipate what the driver ahead of him
> might
> > do. It is his responsibility NOT to hit the car in front of him.
> > The driver in front has the right to set the pace, and brake where he
sees
> > fit for a corner, and it is the driver behind him's responsibility to
> drive
> > AROUND him, not THROUGH him.
> > Your suggestion that Montoya might not be 'clean', as you put is the
most
> > stupid suggestion I have heard yet.
> > Rather get accurate information before you get into Monday morning
> > quarterbacking, than make the uninformed comments you have.
> > You are in no position to judge drivers, when you don't have a clue as
to
> > the protocols and conventions of driving on a racing circuit
> > > I wonder why this is such a hot issue? Why is it that everybody jumps
> > > on his feet as soon as something happens to Montoya?
> > > Did anybody hear is own comments after he returned to the pits, being
> > > interviewed by a Dutch reporter:
> > > "Well, these things happen, that's racing..."
> > > He didn't blame Verstappen right away, so i seriously doubt if he's
> > > clean himself on this one....
> > > Blues
> > > > What would settle it, once and for all, would be for the two teams
> to
> > > > release the
> > > > telemetry tapes for the last few laps up to the ramming. If Jos'
foot
> > was
> > > > buried in the throttle AFTER swing behind JPM, then it would be
pretty
> > > > obvious.
> > > > Now as to Jos thinking JPM had used the brakes early...that could
be
> > > > true...from
> > > > Jos' perspective. JPM and his teammate were way faster down the
> > straight
> > > > than anyone
> > > > else. It would make perfect sense that the Williams braking point
was
> a
> > > > little earlier than the rest of the slugs.
> > > > But I won't let JV off the hook so easy...until we see the lap
> > > telemetry,
> > > > I'll continue to
> > > > suggest he Rammed JPM, not accidentily made contact.
> > > > dave henrie
> > > > > >I'd have loved to see a side-shot or (better) Verstappen's in-car
> > > camera.
> > > > > >It's so hard to judge what happened from the replays.
> > > > > >Regardless, I hadn't been that e***d to see a driver leading a
F1
> > > race
> > > > in
> > > > > >a long time :-(
> > > > > >Dale.
> > > > > Same here Dale.. when Montoya passed Schumi and then showed him
some
> > > > > real racing, I went crazy.. what a race...
> > > > > Andre
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
You're right, the first part of my reply was wrong. I wasn't being too
serious though with what I said about jamming on the brakes right after the
start? How often do drivers do that?
The second part of my reply was serious and is accurate. I said, "There is
no set rule like you just described. If someone does something
completely unexpected like braking too early in F1, then they will deserve
and receive some blame for what follows. The braking distance in F1 is FAR
different than in FF. It's a much different form of racing."
Read the following, especially the section at the end which compares the
braking distances between FF and F1 cars. If Montoya did brake early,
Verstappen should not be blamed for what happened as Aviator says. His
comparison between FF and F1 is not valid due to the tremendous differences
between the two types of cars.
Copied this from the AtlasF1 Bulletin Board
http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18227&perpage=40...
mber=1 :
Question: Is a F1 car similar to FFRenault, etc.?
Russ Brooks (Experienced racer who drove the 1991 Ligier):
"Actually, that is quite an interesting question. (Thanks JayWay for the
prompt, I did mean to answer it!)
The answer to your first question is a definite 'No'. The F1 car felt like a
totally different beast, Ross. Apart from the obvious power hike -
increasing the speeds, the knock-on effects caused by the extra power took
me by surprise.
I (of course) knew that I had to "feel" my way around the throttle pedal for
a while to get used relative speed vs. braking zones, but nothing really
prepared me for the "new" driving characteristics that the massive downforce
introduced.
I had gotten used to throwing the FF cars around with a high degree of
accuracy, and with this came a certain complacency.
This allowed you to control powerslides and turn in to tight corners earlier
"knowing" that the car wasn't going to "answer" your command until 5 metres
later - a racing line that became 2nd knowledge as it were. The worst that
could happen would be a slight running off of line - which would lose you
time but could be corrected by dabbing the throttle and throwing on opposite
lock - or if going too fast, just hammering the brakes and finding your way
out of the run off area and back onto the track.
But with the F1 car this set of rules (understandably) changed quite
considerably. First off, the downforce effect was quite breathtaking. It
meant that you turn the wheel 5mm into a bend and the car was responding
yesterday (lol!) which was quite un-nerving but ultimately providing you
with PREDICTABILITY. Something you didn't have in even the best set-up FF
cars.
Secondly, and as an extension to the above characteristic, it meant apexing
was fantastic. Chicanes could be attacked almost with abandon - knowing that
the car wouldn't argue with you. The "snap over" g-forces that drivers talk
about soon become very apparent. The weight of your crash-lid and head
increases to the point that when I achieved my first relatively quick
direction snap - I thought my head would leave my body. My shoulders were
bruised when I got out the car due to the side-g's, and my knees had taken a
battering.
So to conclude all the above "handling rules", I would say that you could
draw to within a "millimetre" the correct racing line (text-book, you could
say) of any circuit, and follow it like a railtrack.
Which brings me neatly on to the final major differences.
The power increase is so huge, that even with enormous grip any small
mistakes would be punished severely. For example, you could be doing 30mph
around a slow corner - hard lock, and where as in an FF car you would be
used to giving the throttle 50% to pull you out of the corner, in an F1 car
(in 1st gear - soon learnt to use 2nd!) 20% throttle for the briefest dab
would spin you out of control.
This applied to all corners. Even when the downforce effect is working hard
around a 130mph bend, the slightest bit of, "whoops, maybe that didn't need
full throttle in 4th out of there.." and you were in shit-soup!
I had a few scary, "...oh dear, I'm heading into the tyre wall...help
me...phew that was close..." moments...
The other amazing difference, as I mentioned in the thread, was the brakes.
I really couldn't comprehend how late you can brake into a corner without
losing control, in an F1 car.
If you slammed the middle pedal hard to the floor at top speed in an FF1600
(say 125mph) then you could expect the cars wheels to lock up and obviously,
without wheels turning, you have no control over where the car is going. If
you left it too late then you went straight on - past the point of no
return - only to release the brakes and spin sideways off the circuit. But,
and a BIG BUT, you normally at this point had slowed so much that the
run-off collected you - or you only nudged the tyre wall. But late in an
FF1600 means 250metres from the 1st tight corner at the end of the straight.
This even gave you time to correct your line into the corner if you needed
to!
In an F1 car, you could brake from 190mph+ into a 30mph corner - change from
6th to 2nd - and NOT LOCK UP. All from 100metres or so. No room for,
"...Shit!!! Wrong line." You had to get it right, or risk dying horribly in
a tyre wall pizza.
Quite a frightening learning experience, all in all.
Just out of interest, I seem to remember only using full opposite lock to
get out of trouble, and this was on the first few laps. After that, if you
had to use 'opp. lock' then you had done it wrong!
Russ Brooks
> You sir are always one to take things from sublime to ridiculous!
> MS
> David G Fisher <dav...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:w4Uy6.23346$Os.5166726@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
> > So if someone jams on the brakes right after the start, he won't get any
> > blame for the pileup that follows?
> > There is no set rule like you just described. If someone does something
> > completely unexpected like braking too early in F1, then they will
deserve
> > and receive some blame for what follows. The braking distance in F1 is
FAR
> > different than in FF. It's a much different form of racing.
> > David G Fisher
> > "Aviator" <S...@tter.com> wrote in message
> > news:aTTy6.3332$VF3.318515@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > > Blue, I am a Formula Ford driver, and your opinion is your right, but
so
> > far
> > > off the mark, it isn't even funny.
> > > In the braking zone, no matter WHAT the circumstances, the driver at
the
> > > back has the RESPONSIBILITY to anticipate what the driver ahead of him
> > might
> > > do. It is his responsibility NOT to hit the car in front of him.
> > > The driver in front has the right to set the pace, and brake where he
> sees
> > > fit for a corner, and it is the driver behind him's responsibility to
> > drive
> > > AROUND him, not THROUGH him.
> > > Your suggestion that Montoya might not be 'clean', as you put is the
> most
> > > stupid suggestion I have heard yet.
> > > Rather get accurate information before you get into Monday morning
> > > quarterbacking, than make the uninformed comments you have.
> > > You are in no position to judge drivers, when you don't have a clue as
> to
> > > the protocols and conventions of driving on a racing circuit
> > > Blues DeVille <bl...@-REMOVE-newmail.net> wrote in message
> > > news:9af80p$h3r$1@news1.xs4all.nl...
> > > > I wonder why this is such a hot issue? Why is it that everybody
jumps
> > > > on his feet as soon as something happens to Montoya?
> > > > Did anybody hear is own comments after he returned to the pits,
being
> > > > interviewed by a Dutch reporter:
> > > > "Well, these things happen, that's racing..."
> > > > He didn't blame Verstappen right away, so i seriously doubt if he's
> > > > clean himself on this one....
> > > > Blues
> > > > "Dave Henrie" <hen...@home.com> schreef in bericht
> > > > news:p9Fy6.673999$U46.20880831@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
> > > > > What would settle it, once and for all, would be for the two
teams
> > to
> > > > > release the
> > > > > telemetry tapes for the last few laps up to the ramming. If Jos'
> foot
> > > was
> > > > > buried in the throttle AFTER swing behind JPM, then it would be
> pretty
> > > > > obvious.
> > > > > Now as to Jos thinking JPM had used the brakes early...that
could
> be
> > > > > true...from
> > > > > Jos' perspective. JPM and his teammate were way faster down the
> > > straight
> > > > > than anyone
> > > > > else. It would make perfect sense that the Williams braking point
> was
> > a
> > > > > little earlier than the rest of the slugs.
> > > > > But I won't let JV off the hook so easy...until we see the lap
> > > > telemetry,
> > > > > I'll continue to
> > > > > suggest he Rammed JPM, not accidentily made contact.
> > > > > dave henrie
> > > > > "Andre Warringa" <a.warrin...@chello.nl> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3acae0ad.1284951474@news.xs4all.nl...
> > > > > > On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:47:53 -0700, "Sideshow Bob" <i...@hate.spam>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > >I'd have loved to see a side-shot or (better) Verstappen's
in-car
> > > > camera.
> > > > > > >It's so hard to judge what happened from the replays.
> > > > > > >Regardless, I hadn't been that excited to see a driver leading
a
> F1
> > > > race
> > > > > in
> > > > > > >a long time :-(
> > > > > > >Dale.
> > > > > > Same here Dale.. when Montoya passed Schumi and then showed him
> some
> > > > > > real racing, I went crazy.. what a race...
> > > > > > Andre
read more »
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +28.67...F2 +151.26...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
learn to read. I specifically mentioned THE BRAKING ZONE!!
Again, your total lack of grasp of the English language is evident. I
clearly mentioned protocols and conventions, and not regulations or rules
If someone does something
Braking a bit earlier is the norm for a driver having just made a pass. But
never having been on a track, you wouldnt know that, would you??
The braking distance in F1 is FAR
Again, your comment comes from a totally uninformed standpoint. The only
difference is technology and speed
Fisher, you are totally clueless. You are the kind of dodo who believes that
if you happen to be faster than the driver in front of you, he should give
way. Or if you rear end him because you happen to like to brake late, he is
at fault.
You are the kind of idiot, who, if he ever does race in real life, either
ends up dead or killing someone else, or banned for life.
> David G Fisher
> > Blue, I am a Formula Ford driver, and your opinion is your right, but so
> far
> > off the mark, it isn't even funny.
> > In the braking zone, no matter WHAT the circumstances, the driver at the
> > back has the RESPONSIBILITY to anticipate what the driver ahead of him
> might
> > do. It is his responsibility NOT to hit the car in front of him.
> > The driver in front has the right to set the pace, and brake where he
sees
> > fit for a corner, and it is the driver behind him's responsibility to
> drive
> > AROUND him, not THROUGH him.
> > Your suggestion that Montoya might not be 'clean', as you put is the
most
> > stupid suggestion I have heard yet.
> > Rather get accurate information before you get into Monday morning
> > quarterbacking, than make the uninformed comments you have.
> > You are in no position to judge drivers, when you don't have a clue as
to
> > the protocols and conventions of driving on a racing circuit
> > > I wonder why this is such a hot issue? Why is it that everybody jumps
> > > on his feet as soon as something happens to Montoya?
> > > Did anybody hear is own comments after he returned to the pits, being
> > > interviewed by a Dutch reporter:
> > > "Well, these things happen, that's racing..."
> > > He didn't blame Verstappen right away, so i seriously doubt if he's
> > > clean himself on this one....
> > > Blues
> > > > What would settle it, once and for all, would be for the two teams
> to
> > > > release the
> > > > telemetry tapes for the last few laps up to the ramming. If Jos'
foot
> > was
> > > > buried in the throttle AFTER swing behind JPM, then it would be
pretty
> > > > obvious.
> > > > Now as to Jos thinking JPM had used the brakes early...that could
be
> > > > true...from
> > > > Jos' perspective. JPM and his teammate were way faster down the
> > straight
> > > > than anyone
> > > > else. It would make perfect sense that the Williams braking point
was
> a
> > > > little earlier than the rest of the slugs.
> > > > But I won't let JV off the hook so easy...until we see the lap
> > > telemetry,
> > > > I'll continue to
> > > > suggest he Rammed JPM, not accidentily made contact.
> > > > dave henrie
> > > > > >I'd have loved to see a side-shot or (better) Verstappen's in-car
> > > camera.
> > > > > >It's so hard to judge what happened from the replays.
> > > > > >Regardless, I hadn't been that e***d to see a driver leading a
F1
> > > race
> > > > in
> > > > > >a long time :-(
> > > > > >Dale.
> > > > > Same here Dale.. when Montoya passed Schumi and then showed him
some
> > > > > real racing, I went crazy.. what a race...
> > > > > Andre
Read the following, especially the section at the end which compares the
braking distances between FF and F1 cars. If Montoya did brake early,
Verstappen should not be blamed for what happened as you say. Your
comparison between FF and F1 is not valid due to the tremendous differences
between the two types of cars.
Copied this from the AtlasF1 Bulletin Board
http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18227&perpage=40...
mber=1 :
Question: Is a F1 car similar to FFRenault, etc.?
Russ Brooks (Experienced racer who drove the 1991 Ligier):
"Actually, that is quite an interesting question. (Thanks JayWay for the
prompt, I did mean to answer it!)
The answer to your first question is a definite 'No'. The F1 car felt like a
totally different beast, Ross. Apart from the obvious power hike -
increasing the speeds, the knock-on effects caused by the extra power took
me by surprise.
I (of course) knew that I had to "feel" my way around the throttle pedal for
a while to get used relative speed vs. braking zones, but nothing really
prepared me for the "new" driving characteristics that the massive downforce
introduced.
I had gotten used to throwing the FF cars around with a high degree of
accuracy, and with this came a certain complacency.
This allowed you to control powerslides and turn in to tight corners earlier
"knowing" that the car wasn't going to "answer" your command until 5 metres
later - a racing line that became 2nd knowledge as it were. The worst that
could happen would be a slight running off of line - which would lose you
time but could be corrected by dabbing the throttle and throwing on opposite
lock - or if going too fast, just hammering the brakes and finding your way
out of the run off area and back onto the track.
But with the F1 car this set of rules (understandably) changed quite
considerably. First off, the downforce effect was quite breathtaking. It
meant that you turn the wheel 5mm into a bend and the car was responding
yesterday (lol!) which was quite un-nerving but ultimately providing you
with PREDICTABILITY. Something you didn't have in even the best set-up FF
cars.
Secondly, and as an extension to the above characteristic, it meant apexing
was fantastic. Chicanes could be attacked almost with abandon - knowing that
the car wouldn't argue with you. The "snap over" g-forces that drivers talk
about soon become very apparent. The weight of your crash-lid and head
increases to the point that when I achieved my first relatively quick
direction snap - I thought my head would leave my body. My shoulders were
bruised when I got out the car due to the side-g's, and my knees had taken a
battering.
So to conclude all the above "handling rules", I would say that you could
draw to within a "millimetre" the correct racing line (text-book, you could
say) of any circuit, and follow it like a railtrack.
Which brings me neatly on to the final major differences.
The power increase is so huge, that even with enormous grip any small
mistakes would be punished severely. For example, you could be doing 30mph
around a slow corner - hard lock, and where as in an FF car you would be
used to giving the throttle 50% to pull you out of the corner, in an F1 car
(in 1st gear - soon learnt to use 2nd!) 20% throttle for the briefest dab
would spin you out of control.
This applied to all corners. Even when the downforce effect is working hard
around a 130mph bend, the slightest bit of, "whoops, maybe that didn't need
full throttle in 4th out of there.." and you were in shit-soup!
I had a few scary, "...oh dear, I'm heading into the tyre wall...help
me...phew that was close..." moments...
The other amazing difference, as I mentioned in the thread, was the brakes.
I really couldn't comprehend how late you can brake into a corner without
losing control, in an F1 car.
If you slammed the middle pedal hard to the floor at top speed in an FF1600
(say 125mph) then you could expect the cars wheels to lock up and obviously,
without wheels turning, you have no control over where the car is going. If
you left it too late then you went straight on - past the point of no
return - only to release the brakes and spin sideways off the circuit. But,
and a BIG BUT, you normally at this point had slowed so much that the
run-off collected you - or you only nudged the tyre wall. But late in an
FF1600 means 250metres from the 1st tight corner at the end of the straight.
This even gave you time to correct your line into the corner if you needed
to!
In an F1 car, you could brake from 190mph+ into a 30mph corner - change from
6th to 2nd - and NOT LOCK UP. All from 100metres or so. No room for,
"...Shit!!! Wrong line." You had to get it right, or risk dying horribly in
a tyre wall pizza.
Quite a frightening learning experience, all in all.
Just out of interest, I seem to remember only using full opposite lock to
get out of trouble, and this was on the first few laps. After that, if you
had to use 'opp. lock' then you had done it wrong!
Russ Brooks
David G Fisher
> David G Fisher <dav...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:w4Uy6.23346$Os.5166726@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
> > So if someone jams on the brakes right after the start, he won't get any
> > blame for the pileup that follows?
> learn to read. I specifically mentioned THE BRAKING ZONE!!
> > There is no set rule like you just described.
> Again, your total lack of grasp of the English language is evident. I
> clearly mentioned protocols and conventions, and not regulations or rules
> If someone does something
> > completely unexpected like braking too early in F1, then they will
deserve
> > and receive some blame for what follows.
> Braking a bit earlier is the norm for a driver having just made a pass.
But
> never having been on a track, you wouldnt know that, would you??
> The braking distance in F1 is FAR
> > different than in FF. It's a much different form of racing.
> Again, your comment comes from a totally uninformed standpoint. The only
> difference is technology and speed
> Fisher, you are totally clueless. You are the kind of dodo who believes
that
> if you happen to be faster than the driver in front of you, he should give
> way. Or if you rear end him because you happen to like to brake late, he
is
> at fault.
> You are the kind of idiot, who, if he ever does race in real life, either
> ends up dead or killing someone else, or banned for life.
> > David G Fisher
> > "Aviator" <S...@tter.com> wrote in message
> > news:aTTy6.3332$VF3.318515@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > > Blue, I am a Formula Ford driver, and your opinion is your right, but
so
> > far
> > > off the mark, it isn't even funny.
> > > In the braking zone, no matter WHAT the circumstances, the driver at
the
> > > back has the RESPONSIBILITY to anticipate what the driver ahead of him
> > might
> > > do. It is his responsibility NOT to hit the car in front of him.
> > > The driver in front has the right to set the pace, and brake where he
> sees
> > > fit for a corner, and it is the driver behind him's responsibility to
> > drive
> > > AROUND him, not THROUGH him.
> > > Your suggestion that Montoya might not be 'clean', as you put is the
> most
> > > stupid suggestion I have heard yet.
> > > Rather get accurate information before you get into Monday morning
> > > quarterbacking, than make the uninformed comments you have.
> > > You are in no position to judge drivers, when you don't have a clue as
> to
> > > the protocols and conventions of driving on a racing circuit
> > > Blues DeVille <bl...@-REMOVE-newmail.net> wrote in message
> > > news:9af80p$h3r$1@news1.xs4all.nl...
> > > > I wonder why this is such a hot issue? Why is it that everybody
jumps
> > > > on his feet as soon as something happens to Montoya?
> > > > Did anybody hear is own comments after he returned to the pits,
being
> > > > interviewed by a Dutch reporter:
> > > > "Well, these things happen, that's racing..."
> > > > He didn't blame Verstappen right away, so i seriously doubt if he's
> > > > clean himself on this one....
> > > > Blues
> > > > "Dave Henrie" <hen...@home.com> schreef in bericht
> > > > news:p9Fy6.673999$U46.20880831@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
> > > > > What would settle it, once and for all, would be for the two
teams
> > to
> > > > > release the
> > > > > telemetry tapes for the last few laps up to the ramming. If Jos'
> foot
> > > was
> > > > > buried in the throttle AFTER swing behind JPM, then it would be
> pretty
> > > > > obvious.
> > > > > Now as to Jos thinking JPM had used the brakes early...that
could
> be
> > > > > true...from
> > > > > Jos' perspective. JPM and his teammate were way faster down the
> > > straight
> > > > > than anyone
> > > > > else. It would make perfect sense that the Williams braking point
> was
> > a
> > > > > little earlier than the rest of the slugs.
> > > > > But I won't let JV off the hook so easy...until we see the lap
> > > > telemetry,
> > > > > I'll continue to
> > > > > suggest he Rammed JPM, not accidentily made contact.
> > > > > dave henrie
> > > > > "Andre Warringa" <a.warrin...@chello.nl> wrote in message
> > > > > news:3acae0ad.1284951474@news.xs4all.nl...
> > > > > > On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:47:53 -0700, "Sideshow Bob" <i...@hate.spam>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > >I'd have loved to see a side-shot or (better) Verstappen's
in-car
> > > > camera.
> > > > > > >It's so hard to judge what happened from the replays.
> > > > > > >Regardless, I hadn't been that excited to see a driver leading
a
> F1
> > > > race
> > > > > in
> > > > > > >a long time :-(
> > > > > > >Dale.
> > > > > > Same here Dale.. when Montoya passed Schumi and then showed him
> some
> > > > > > real racing, I went
read more »
And as shown in my previous reply, your response is totally uninformed and
incorrect
Fisher, your comparison is odious and irrelevant. Braking distances should
be compared relative to other cars on the circuit, and not between different
formulas which will never share the same circuit. The principle and
conventions remain the same. The driver at the front sets the pace. The
driver behind has a clear cut responsiblity to anticipate almost any
eventuality, and to take due care. Not, as you would seem to understand it,
that a driver in front who brakes early is responsible for the stupidity of
a driver who brakes late, and expects every other driver to do the same.
http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18227&perpage=40...
> Russ Brooks (Experienced racer who drove the 1991 Ligier):
> "Actually, that is quite an interesting question. (Thanks JayWay for the
> prompt, I did mean to answer it!)
> The answer to your first question is a definite 'No'. The F1 car felt like
a
> totally different beast, Ross. Apart from the obvious power hike -
> increasing the speeds, the knock-on effects caused by the extra power took
> me by surprise.
> I (of course) knew that I had to "feel" my way around the throttle pedal
for
> a while to get used relative speed vs. braking zones, but nothing really
> prepared me for the "new" driving characteristics that the massive
downforce
> introduced.
> I had gotten used to throwing the FF cars around with a high degree of
> accuracy, and with this came a certain complacency.
> This allowed you to control powerslides and turn in to tight corners
earlier
> "knowing" that the car wasn't going to "answer" your command until 5
metres
> later - a racing line that became 2nd knowledge as it were. The worst that
> could happen would be a slight running off of line - which would lose you
> time but could be corrected by dabbing the throttle and throwing on
opposite
> lock - or if going too fast, just hammering the brakes and finding your
way
> out of the run off area and back onto the track.
> But with the F1 car this set of rules (understandably) changed quite
> considerably. First off, the downforce effect was quite breathtaking. It
> meant that you turn the wheel 5mm into a bend and the car was responding
> yesterday (lol!) which was quite un-nerving but ultimately providing you
> with PREDICTABILITY. Something you didn't have in even the best set-up FF
> cars.
> Secondly, and as an extension to the above characteristic, it meant
apexing
> was fantastic. Chicanes could be attacked almost with abandon - knowing
that
> the car wouldn't argue with you. The "snap over" g-forces that drivers
talk
> about soon become very apparent. The weight of your crash-lid and head
> increases to the point that when I achieved my first relatively quick
> direction snap - I thought my head would leave my body. My shoulders were
> bruised when I got out the car due to the side-g's, and my knees had taken
a
> battering.
> So to conclude all the above "handling rules", I would say that you could
> draw to within a "millimetre" the correct racing line (text-book, you
could
> say) of any circuit, and follow it like a railtrack.
> Which brings me neatly on to the final major differences.
> The power increase is so huge, that even with enormous grip any small
> mistakes would be punished severely. For example, you could be doing 30mph
> around a slow corner - hard lock, and where as in an FF car you would be
> used to giving the throttle 50% to pull you out of the corner, in an F1
car
> (in 1st gear - soon learnt to use 2nd!) 20% throttle for the briefest dab
> would spin you out of control.
> This applied to all corners. Even when the downforce effect is working
hard
> around a 130mph bend, the slightest bit of, "whoops, maybe that didn't
need
> full throttle in 4th out of there.." and you were in shit-soup!
> I had a few scary, "...oh dear, I'm heading into the tyre wall...help
> me...phew that was close..." moments...
> The other amazing difference, as I mentioned in the thread, was the
brakes.
> I really couldn't comprehend how late you can brake into a corner without
> losing control, in an F1 car.
> If you slammed the middle pedal hard to the floor at top speed in an
FF1600
> (say 125mph) then you could expect the cars wheels to lock up and
obviously,
> without wheels turning, you have no control over where the car is going.
If
> you left it too late then you went straight on - past the point of no
> return - only to release the brakes and spin sideways off the circuit.
But,
> and a BIG BUT, you normally at this point had slowed so much that the
> run-off collected you - or you only nudged the tyre wall. But late in an
> FF1600 means 250metres from the 1st tight corner at the end of the
straight.
> This even gave you time to correct your line into the corner if you needed
> to!
> In an F1 car, you could brake from 190mph+ into a 30mph corner - change
from
> 6th to 2nd - and NOT LOCK UP. All from 100metres or so. No room for,
> "...Shit!!! Wrong line." You had to get it right, or risk dying horribly
in
> a tyre wall pizza.
> Quite a frightening learning experience, all in all.
> Just out of interest, I seem to remember only using full opposite lock to
> get out of trouble, and this was on the first few laps. After that, if you
> had to use 'opp. lock' then you had done it wrong!
> Russ Brooks
> > Read the below again.
> > -Gregor
> > > So if someone jams on the brakes right after the start, he won't get
any
> > > blame for the pileup that follows?
> > > > In the braking zone, no matter WHAT the circumstances, the driver at
> the
> > > > back has the RESPONSIBILITY to anticipate what the driver ahead of
him
> > > might
> > > > do. It is his responsibility NOT to hit the car in front of him.
Dave, Dave............
Blaming either driver is stupid in the extreme. Obi Juan had a reason for
breaking earlier than usual, and Jos cannot be blamed for not anticipating
his action. However, it is a convention in ALL forms of racing that the
driver behind has the responsibility not to ram the car in front of him.
Thus it was Jos's ERROR in this regard that caused the accident. That is
what as known as a racing incident. Both drivers are blameless as regards
intent or neglect
Case closed.
Next race.........................
> > > Here in Holland we have this weird 'innocent untill proven guilty'
> > > thingie..
> > > Andre
> > I know, I know...I watch too much X Files...but, given the lack of
> > any reason why one of the worlds best drivers would suddenly go ape and
> > blast into another car, I can only conclude that either Rubens and Jos
> drank
> > the same
> > Brazillian water or nobody wants to see Williams climb back on top.
> > dave henrie
> Dave, Dave............
> Blaming either driver is stupid in the extreme. Obi Juan had a reason for
> breaking earlier than usual, and Jos cannot be blamed for not anticipating
> his action. However, it is a convention in ALL forms of racing that the
> driver behind has the responsibility not to ram the car in front of him.
> Thus it was Jos's ERROR in this regard that caused the accident. That is
> what as known as a racing incident. Both drivers are blameless as regards
> intent or neglect
> Case closed.
> >Your suggestion that Montoya might not be 'clean', as you put is the most
> >stupid suggestion I have heard yet.
> Besides, why would Juan purposely brake early, and run the risk of being
run
> over? Jos screwed up, plain and simple. From hero to goat, if you ask
me...
> Eldred
No doubt red mist didn't help the situation.
Ben
>Read the following, especially the section at the end which compares the
>braking distances between FF and F1 cars. If Montoya did brake early,
>Verstappen should not be blamed for what happened as you say. Your
>comparison between FF and F1 is not valid due to the tremendous differences
>between the two types of cars.
>Copied this from the AtlasF1 Bulletin Board
>http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18227&perpage=40...
u
>mber=1 :
>Question: Is a F1 car similar to FFRenault, etc.?
>Russ Brooks (Experienced racer who drove the 1991 Ligier):
>"Actually, that is quite an interesting question. (Thanks JayWay for the
>prompt, I did mean to answer it!)
>The answer to your first question is a definite 'No'. The F1 car felt like
a
>totally different beast, Ross. Apart from the obvious power hike -
>increasing the speeds, the knock-on effects caused by the extra power took
>me by surprise.
>I (of course) knew that I had to "feel" my way around the throttle pedal
for
>a while to get used relative speed vs. braking zones, but nothing really
>prepared me for the "new" driving characteristics that the massive
downforce
>introduced.
>I had gotten used to throwing the FF cars around with a high degree of
>accuracy, and with this came a certain complacency.
>This allowed you to control powerslides and turn in to tight corners
earlier
>"knowing" that the car wasn't going to "answer" your command until 5 metres
>later - a racing line that became 2nd knowledge as it were. The worst that
>could happen would be a slight running off of line - which would lose you
>time but could be corrected by dabbing the throttle and throwing on
opposite
>lock - or if going too fast, just hammering the brakes and finding your way
>out of the run off area and back onto the track.
>But with the F1 car this set of rules (understandably) changed quite
>considerably. First off, the downforce effect was quite breathtaking. It
>meant that you turn the wheel 5mm into a bend and the car was responding
>yesterday (lol!) which was quite un-nerving but ultimately providing you
>with PREDICTABILITY. Something you didn't have in even the best set-up FF
>cars.
>Secondly, and as an extension to the above characteristic, it meant apexing
>was fantastic. Chicanes could be attacked almost with abandon - knowing
that
>the car wouldn't argue with you. The "snap over" g-forces that drivers talk
>about soon become very apparent. The weight of your crash-lid and head
>increases to the point that when I achieved my first relatively quick
>direction snap - I thought my head would leave my body. My shoulders were
>bruised when I got out the car due to the side-g's, and my knees had taken
a
>battering.
>So to conclude all the above "handling rules", I would say that you could
>draw to within a "millimetre" the correct racing line (text-book, you could
>say) of any circuit, and follow it like a railtrack.
>Which brings me neatly on to the final major differences.
>The power increase is so huge, that even with enormous grip any small
>mistakes would be punished severely. For example, you could be doing 30mph
>around a slow corner - hard lock, and where as in an FF car you would be
>used to giving the throttle 50% to pull you out of the corner, in an F1 car
>(in 1st gear - soon learnt to use 2nd!) 20% throttle for the briefest dab
>would spin you out of control.
>This applied to all corners. Even when the downforce effect is working hard
>around a 130mph bend, the slightest bit of, "whoops, maybe that didn't need
>full throttle in 4th out of there.." and you were in shit-soup!
>I had a few scary, "...oh dear, I'm heading into the tyre wall...help
>me...phew that was close..." moments...
>The other amazing difference, as I mentioned in the thread, was the brakes.
>I really couldn't comprehend how late you can brake into a corner without
>losing control, in an F1 car.
>If you slammed the middle pedal hard to the floor at top speed in an FF1600
>(say 125mph) then you could expect the cars wheels to lock up and
obviously,
>without wheels turning, you have no control over where the car is going. If
>you left it too late then you went straight on - past the point of no
>return - only to release the brakes and spin sideways off the circuit. But,
>and a BIG BUT, you normally at this point had slowed so much that the
>run-off collected you - or you only nudged the tyre wall. But late in an
>FF1600 means 250metres from the 1st tight corner at the end of the
straight.
>This even gave you time to correct your line into the corner if you needed
>to!
>In an F1 car, you could brake from 190mph+ into a 30mph corner - change
from
>6th to 2nd - and NOT LOCK UP. All from 100metres or so. No room for,
>"...Shit!!! Wrong line." You had to get it right, or risk dying horribly in
>a tyre wall pizza.
>Quite a frightening learning experience, all in all.
>Just out of interest, I seem to remember only using full opposite lock to
>get out of trouble, and this was on the first few laps. After that, if you
>had to use 'opp. lock' then you had done it wrong!
>Russ Brooks
>David G Fisher
>"Aviator" <S...@tter.com> wrote in message
>news:mX4z6.5372$VF3.439857@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>> David G Fisher <dav...@home.com> wrote in message
>> news:w4Uy6.23346$Os.5166726@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
>> > So if someone jams on the brakes right after the start, he won't get
any
>> > blame for the pileup that follows?
>> learn to read. I specifically mentioned THE BRAKING ZONE!!
>> > There is no set rule like you just described.
>> Again, your total lack of grasp of the English language is evident. I
>> clearly mentioned protocols and conventions, and not regulations or rules
>> If someone does something
>> > completely unexpected like braking too early in F1, then they will
>deserve
>> > and receive some blame for what follows.
>> Braking a bit earlier is the norm for a driver having just made a pass.
>But
>> never having been on a track, you wouldnt know that, would you??
>> The braking distance in F1 is FAR
>> > different than in FF. It's a much different form of racing.
>> Again, your comment comes from a totally uninformed standpoint. The only
>> difference is technology and speed
>> Fisher, you are totally clueless. You are the kind of dodo who believes
>that
>> if you happen to be faster than the driver in front of you, he should
give
>> way. Or if you rear end him because you happen to like to brake late, he
>is
>> at fault.
>> You are the kind of idiot, who, if he ever does race in real life, either
>> ends up dead or killing someone else, or banned for life.
>> > David G Fisher
>> > "Aviator" <S...@tter.com> wrote in message
>> > news:aTTy6.3332$VF3.318515@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>> > > Blue, I am a Formula Ford driver, and your opinion is your right, but
>so
>> > far
>> > > off the mark, it isn't even funny.
>> > > In the braking zone, no matter WHAT the circumstances, the driver at
>the
>> > > back has the RESPONSIBILITY to anticipate what the driver ahead of
him
>> > might
>> > > do. It is his responsibility NOT to hit the car in front of him.
>> > > The driver in front has the right to set the pace, and brake where he
>> sees
>> > > fit for a corner, and it is the driver behind him's responsibility to
>> > drive
>> > > AROUND him, not THROUGH him.
>> > > Your suggestion that Montoya might not be 'clean', as you put is the
>> most
>> > > stupid suggestion I have heard yet.
>> > > Rather get accurate information before you get into Monday morning
>> > > quarterbacking, than make the uninformed comments you have.
>> > > You are in no position to judge drivers, when you don't have a clue
as
>> to
>> > > the protocols and conventions of driving on a racing circuit
>> > > Blues DeVille <bl...@-REMOVE-newmail.net> wrote in message
>> > > news:9af80p$h3r$1@news1.xs4all.nl...
>> > > > I wonder why this is such a hot issue? Why is it that everybody
>jumps
>> > > > on his feet as soon as something happens to Montoya?
>> > > > Did anybody hear is own comments after he returned to the pits,
>being
>> > > > interviewed by a Dutch reporter:
>> > > > "Well, these things happen, that's racing..."
>> > > > He didn't blame Verstappen right away, so i seriously doubt if he's
>> > > > clean himself on this one....
>> > > > Blues
>> > > > "Dave Henrie" <hen...@home.com> schreef in bericht
>> > > > news:p9Fy6.673999$U46.20880831@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
>> > > > > What would settle it, once and for all, would be for the two
>teams
>> > to
>> > > > > release the
>> > > > > telemetry tapes for the last few laps up to the ramming. If Jos'
>> foot
>> > > was
>> > > > > buried in the throttle AFTER swing behind JPM, then it would be
>> pretty
>> > > > > obvious.
>> > > > > Now as to Jos thinking JPM had used the brakes early...that
>could
>> be
>> > > > > true...from
>> > > > > Jos' perspective. JPM and his teammate were way faster down the
>> > > straight
>> > > > > than anyone
>> > > > > else. It would make perfect sense that the Williams braking
point
>> was
>> > a
>> > > > > little earlier than the rest of the slugs.
>> > > > > But I won't let JV off the hook so easy...until we see the lap
>> > > > telemetry,
>> > > > > I'll continue to
>> > > > > suggest he Rammed JPM, not accidentily made
read more »
David G Fisher
> No doubt red mist didn't help the situation.
> Ben
> David G Fisher wrote in message ...
> >Nice try.
> >Read the following, especially the section at the end which compares the
> >braking distances between FF and F1 cars. If Montoya did brake early,
> >Verstappen should not be blamed for what happened as you say. Your
> >comparison between FF and F1 is not valid due to the tremendous
differences
> >between the two types of cars.
> >Copied this from the AtlasF1 Bulletin Board
>http://www.atlasf1.com/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18227&perpage=40...
> u
> >mber=1 :
> >Question: Is a F1 car similar to FFRenault, etc.?
> >Russ Brooks (Experienced racer who drove the 1991 Ligier):
> >"Actually, that is quite an interesting question. (Thanks JayWay for the
> >prompt, I did mean to answer it!)
> >The answer to your first question is a definite 'No'. The F1 car felt
like
> a
> >totally different beast, Ross. Apart from the obvious power hike -
> >increasing the speeds, the knock-on effects caused by the extra power
took
> >me by surprise.
> >I (of course) knew that I had to "feel" my way around the throttle pedal
> for
> >a while to get used relative speed vs. braking zones, but nothing really
> >prepared me for the "new" driving characteristics that the massive
> downforce
> >introduced.
> >I had gotten used to throwing the FF cars around with a high degree of
> >accuracy, and with this came a certain complacency.
> >This allowed you to control powerslides and turn in to tight corners
> earlier
> >"knowing" that the car wasn't going to "answer" your command until 5
metres
> >later - a racing line that became 2nd knowledge as it were. The worst
that
> >could happen would be a slight running off of line - which would lose you
> >time but could be corrected by dabbing the throttle and throwing on
> opposite
> >lock - or if going too fast, just hammering the brakes and finding your
way
> >out of the run off area and back onto the track.
> >But with the F1 car this set of rules (understandably) changed quite
> >considerably. First off, the downforce effect was quite breathtaking. It
> >meant that you turn the wheel 5mm into a bend and the car was responding
> >yesterday (lol!) which was quite un-nerving but ultimately providing you
> >with PREDICTABILITY. Something you didn't have in even the best set-up FF
> >cars.
> >Secondly, and as an extension to the above characteristic, it meant
apexing
> >was fantastic. Chicanes could be attacked almost with abandon - knowing
> that
> >the car wouldn't argue with you. The "snap over" g-forces that drivers
talk
> >about soon become very apparent. The weight of your crash-lid and head
> >increases to the point that when I achieved my first relatively quick
> >direction snap - I thought my head would leave my body. My shoulders were
> >bruised when I got out the car due to the side-g's, and my knees had
taken
> a
> >battering.
> >So to conclude all the above "handling rules", I would say that you could
> >draw to within a "millimetre" the correct racing line (text-book, you
could
> >say) of any circuit, and follow it like a railtrack.
> >Which brings me neatly on to the final major differences.
> >The power increase is so huge, that even with enormous grip any small
> >mistakes would be punished severely. For example, you could be doing
30mph
> >around a slow corner - hard lock, and where as in an FF car you would be
> >used to giving the throttle 50% to pull you out of the corner, in an F1
car
> >(in 1st gear - soon learnt to use 2nd!) 20% throttle for the briefest dab
> >would spin you out of control.
> >This applied to all corners. Even when the downforce effect is working
hard
> >around a 130mph bend, the slightest bit of, "whoops, maybe that didn't
need
> >full throttle in 4th out of there.." and you were in shit-soup!
> >I had a few scary, "...oh dear, I'm heading into the tyre wall...help
> >me...phew that was close..." moments...
> >The other amazing difference, as I mentioned in the thread, was the
brakes.
> >I really couldn't comprehend how late you can brake into a corner without
> >losing control, in an F1 car.
> >If you slammed the middle pedal hard to the floor at top speed in an
FF1600
> >(say 125mph) then you could expect the cars wheels to lock up and
> obviously,
> >without wheels turning, you have no control over where the car is going.
If
> >you left it too late then you went straight on - past the point of no
> >return - only to release the brakes and spin sideways off the circuit.
But,
> >and a BIG BUT, you normally at this point had slowed so much that the
> >run-off collected you - or you only nudged the tyre wall. But late in an
> >FF1600 means 250metres from the 1st tight corner at the end of the
> straight.
> >This even gave you time to correct your line into the corner if you
needed
> >to!
> >In an F1 car, you could brake from 190mph+ into a 30mph corner - change
> from
> >6th to 2nd - and NOT LOCK UP. All from 100metres or so. No room for,
> >"...Shit!!! Wrong line." You had to get it right, or risk dying horribly
in
> >a tyre wall pizza.
> >Quite a frightening learning experience, all in all.
> >Just out of interest, I seem to remember only using full opposite lock to
> >get out of trouble, and this was on the first few laps. After that, if
you
> >had to use 'opp. lock' then you had done it wrong!
> >Russ Brooks
> >David G Fisher
> >"Aviator" <S...@tter.com> wrote in message
> >news:mX4z6.5372$VF3.439857@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >> David G Fisher <dav...@home.com> wrote in message
> >> news:w4Uy6.23346$Os.5166726@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
> >> > So if someone jams on the brakes right after the start, he won't get
> any
> >> > blame for the pileup that follows?
> >> learn to read. I specifically mentioned THE BRAKING ZONE!!
> >> > There is no set rule like you just described.
> >> Again, your total lack of grasp of the English language is evident. I
> >> clearly mentioned protocols and conventions, and not regulations or
rules
> >> If someone does something
> >> > completely unexpected like braking too early in F1, then they will
> >deserve
> >> > and receive some blame for what follows.
> >> Braking a bit earlier is the norm for a driver having just made a pass.
> >But
> >> never having been on a track, you wouldnt know that, would you??
> >> The braking distance in F1 is FAR
> >> > different than in FF. It's a much different form of racing.
> >> Again, your comment comes from a totally uninformed standpoint. The
only
> >> difference is technology and speed
> >> Fisher, you are totally clueless. You are the kind of dodo who believes
> >that
> >> if you happen to be faster than the driver in front of you, he should
> give
> >> way. Or if you rear end him because you happen to like to brake late,
he
> >is
> >> at fault.
> >> You are the kind of idiot, who, if he ever does race in real life,
either
> >> ends up dead or killing someone else, or banned for life.
> >> > David G Fisher
> >> > "Aviator" <S...@tter.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:aTTy6.3332$VF3.318515@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >> > > Blue, I am a Formula Ford driver, and your opinion is your right,
but
> >so
> >> > far
> >> > > off the mark, it isn't even funny.
> >> > > In the braking zone, no matter WHAT the circumstances, the driver
at
> >the
> >> > > back has the RESPONSIBILITY to anticipate what the driver ahead of
> him
> >> > might
> >> > > do. It is his responsibility NOT to hit the car in front of him.
> >> > > The driver in front has the right to set the pace, and brake where
he
> >> sees
> >> > > fit for a corner, and it is the driver behind him's responsibility
to
> >> > drive
> >> > > AROUND him, not THROUGH him.
> >> > > Your suggestion that Montoya might not be 'clean', as you put is
the
> >> most
> >> > > stupid suggestion I have heard yet.
> >> > > Rather get accurate information before you get into Monday morning
> >> > > quarterbacking, than make the uninformed comments you have.
> >> > > You are in no position to judge drivers, when you don't have a clue
> as
> >> to
> >> > > the protocols and conventions of driving on a racing circuit
> >> > > Blues DeVille <bl...@-REMOVE-newmail.net> wrote in message
> >> > > news:9af80p$h3r$1@news1.xs4all.nl...
> >> > > > I wonder why this is such a hot issue? Why is it that everybody
> >jumps
> >> > > > on his feet as soon as something happens to Montoya?
> >> > > > Did anybody hear is own comments after he returned to the pits,
> >being
> >> > > > interviewed by a Dutch reporter:
> >> > > > "Well, these things happen, that's racing..."
> >> > > > He didn't blame Verstappen right away, so i seriously doubt if
he's
> >> > > > clean himself on this one....
> >> > > > Blues
> >> > > > "Dave Henrie" <hen...@home.com> schreef in bericht
> >> > > > news:p9Fy6.673999$U46.20880831@news1.sttls1.wa.home.com...
> >> > > > > What would settle it, once and for all, would be for the two
> >teams
> >> > to
> >> > > > > release the
> >> > > > > telemetry tapes for the last few laps up to the ramming. If
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