rec.autos.simulators

Bruce,

When the first illegal editors started to appear for GP2 we in Customer
Services told by our QA people who were told by Geoff that all functions of
GP2 are NOT seperate.. Editing the car designed will effect sound or
performace, editing the sounds affect the AI, etc etc.  Each part of GP2 was
written in a special way to check the validity of the other parts.  This is
as I have said the information we were presented with.

All MicroProse products have licence aggreements which have now been tighted
to prevent any future editors on future games which would result in legal
charges.  The programs are our copyright and the copyright of the authors
(in the case of GP2 - Geoff Crammond) and not subject to disassembling by
anyone without permission.

Regards,
Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe

======

Well looking at the FPS market I would say you almost *have* to include
editors these days. However, if MPS think that they can miss something out of
their product them slap down the hardworking individuals who create editors
and expand the life of their product then they are not only misguided, but
becoming amazingly arrogant.

I'm sure that the people in here are amongst the most knowledgable sim racing
fans in the world and if MPS turn us against them, they're going to have a
hard time. MPS need to sit down and look at what they want to do... is it
going to be like the last "computer boom" when the customer came second and
the mighty dollar came first or are they going to give us what we want and
deserve?

If Mark is not representing MPS and rather voicing an opinion then he should
at least make sure people know. If he's misquoted the MPS stance then he has
exhibited a complete lack of professionalism and needs to make sure he finds
out how his employer treats things like this before his actions get him in
trouble

Atlaz

->
-> Bruce,
->
-> When the first illegal editors started to appear for GP2 we in Customer
-> Services told by our QA people who were told by Geoff that all functions of
-> GP2 are NOT seperate.. Editing the car designed will effect sound or
-> performace, editing the sounds affect the AI, etc etc.  Each part of GP2 was
-> written in a special way to check the validity of the other parts.  This is
-> as I have said the information we were presented with.
->
-> All MicroProse products have licence aggreements which have now been tighted
-> to prevent any future editors on future games which would result in legal
-> charges.  The programs are our copyright and the copyright of the authors
-> (in the case of GP2 - Geoff Crammond) and not subject to disassembling by
-> anyone without permission.
->
-> Regards,
-> Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe

I'm not relying on comments here. It's _experience_ I'm talking about. I have
been driving (modified) GP2 for more hours than you watched TV your life<G>.

The game runs perfectly well with carsets, new tracks and everything else. No
matter what Mr. Crammond wanted you to believe!

As for the editors being illegal and such: they're all for free, so if you see
any harm in THAT, I don't think I'll waste more time replying.

JoH
Please remove *anti-spam* from the email when replying.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
When everything else failed, we can still become im-
mortal by making an enormous blunder....

                             John Kenneth Galbraith
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Bruce,

When the first illegal editors started to appear for GP2 we in Customer
Services told by our QA people who were told by Geoff that all functions of
GP2 are NOT seperate.. Editing the car designed will effect sound or
performace, editing the sounds affect the AI, etc etc.  Each part of GP2 was
written in a special way to check the validity of the other parts.  This is
as I have said the information we were presented with.

All MicroProse products have licence aggreements which have now been tighted
to prevent any future editors on future games which would result in legal
charges.  The programs are our copyright and the copyright of the authors
(in the case of GP2 - Geoff Crammond) and not subject to disassembling by
anyone without permission.

Regards,
Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe

======

Thank you Andrew!

Mark

I think it's the misguided ravings of a borderline loony!  Surely a
compnay like Microprose would not risk placing the responsibility for
Customer Service in the hands of this idiot?!

Hey Andrew......go back and have another look.
I didn't ask any questions relating to his "answers"!!!

"Dialogue"?
Crap!  The bloke through a load of garbage back at me!  I never raised
the question of editors!

No...they won't have a hard time because although the views expressed
here *may* be from the "most knowledgable", they are certainly a
miniscule representation of the total market.

Sorry Mark (if thats who you really are) thats not how copyrights work.
Want to take it to court? I 'm there. Any author who wants to create an
editor can.
--
Jim Dunphy

The Pits- http://www.racesimcentral.net/

HERE HERE!!
--
Jim Dunphy

The Pits- http://www.theuspits.com

This is one of the stupidest remarks I've heard. The 3rd party editors
add to the game asswipe and would help to drive sales if Micropose was
so inclined.

There is very little point in arguing as you are all set your minds on how
things work in contridiction of that we have been told internally.

The fact is that the editor programs for this game work by disassembling
program code written and owned by someone else.  To do this one must first
obtain the permission of the copyright holder which as far as we in CS
(Europe/UK) have been told has never happened.  My understanding is that we
are not going to jump up and down and shout stop using them, what's the
point?  We are also not going to go round to all the WWW sites and ask them
to remove the editors - again what's that point?  The reality is by editing
code one has no permission to edit is illegal and "could" result in charges
in some cases even though we have decided not to pursue this, but licence
aggrements are supplied in the packages which all indicate the one is not
allowed to edit the code and this is wrong.

In the wake of GP2 I was told by the development department that these
aggreements were tightened on all UK sourced products (the US ones already
having such an agreement - if memory serves) that strongly indicate this
line and I have been told that this "should" stop this on FUTURE products.
I was also told that the company takes this very seriously and Geoff was not
happy at the editors that started to appear shortly after publication.
Whether this is correct or not, I do not know, this is simply what I was
told.

The editors do "break" the program according to our QA people in the UK who
forwarded me this infomation a very long time ago and they upset the AI,
sound, stability of the program, etc although the perfomance of the cars
(going back to the original thread and not the resulting insults to me) are
not affected and will continue to drive like 1994 cars as this is how they
were programmed from performance data gathered during development.  Why
performance is unaffected I do not know, probably a different part of the
program, I would not like to even guess.

If anyone has any SERIOUS questions please send them to me instead of the
insults and factually incorrect assumptions that made this simple answer to
a simple queston so long.

Regards,
Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe

Serious question:

Are we to take the views as expressive of Microprose, be it MPS Europe, or MPS
as a company, or take them as the expressed opinion of Mark Rich.

If you are unwilling to answer this- which by and large you have so far, i
guess i'll have to seek clarification from Jason Dutton at MPS's PR
Department.

Regards

Z.

So...  It is illegal to reverse engineer a file structure and create code
based on this structure? Wrong... if this were the case surely MPS, id
Software and a plethora of others would be rich as hell from taking people to
court. Admittedly this is a grey area in UK software law from what I
understand, but still it is not illegal. Distribution of copyright material
*is* illegal however...

Altering car colours etc. alters AI. Wrong again. Have you ever played GP2
Mark or is this just a "My boss told me this so it's true" comment like you
get from most tech support people? The majority of GP2 drivers on this forum
know that this is rubbish regardless of what you were told by these "QA
people".

We have asked you SERIOUS questions all along but you've avoided answering
them and put us of with useless answers like this. You have sidestepped the
issue of whether you're talking for yourself or for MPS and I guess some
people are going to call for clarification soon. You may think you're talking
to kids here Mark, but the majority of us aren't and even if we were, your
attitude would still be inappropriate.

If you want respect, please do more than come online saying "I work at MPS so
listen to me"

Atlaz

-There is very little point in arguing as you are all set your minds on how
-things work in contridiction of that we have been told internally.
-
-The fact is that the editor programs for this game work by disassembling
-program code written and owned by someone else.  To do this one must first
-obtain the permission of the copyright holder which as far as we in CS
-(Europe/UK) have been told has never happened.  My understanding is that we
-are not going to jump up and down and shout stop using them, what's the
-point?  We are also not going to go round to all the WWW sites and ask them
-to remove the editors - again what's that point?  The reality is by editing
-code one has no permission to edit is illegal and "could" result in charges
-in some cases even though we have decided not to pursue this, but licence
-aggrements are supplied in the packages which all indicate the one is not
-allowed to edit the code and this is wrong.
-
-In the wake of GP2 I was told by the development department that these
-aggreements were tightened on all UK sourced products (the US ones already
-having such an agreement - if memory serves) that strongly indicate this
-line and I have been told that this "should" stop this on FUTURE products.
-I was also told that the company takes this very seriously and Geoff was not
-happy at the editors that started to appear shortly after publication.
-Whether this is correct or not, I do not know, this is simply what I was
-told.
-
-The editors do "break" the program according to our QA people in the UK who
-forwarded me this infomation a very long time ago and they upset the AI,
-sound, stability of the program, etc although the perfomance of the cars
-(going back to the original thread and not the resulting insults to me) are
-not affected and will continue to drive like 1994 cars as this is how they
-were programmed from performance data gathered during development.  Why
-performance is unaffected I do not know, probably a different part of the
-program, I would not like to even guess.
-
-If anyone has any SERIOUS questions please send them to me instead of the
-insults and factually incorrect assumptions that made this simple answer to
-a simple queston so long.
-
-Regards,
-Mark Rich/MicroProse-Europe

-
-

->
->>Jo,
->>
->>If you don't beleive I am at MicroProse-Europe Customer Services try
-calling
->>us one day on the telephone.
->>We can then tell you directly the answer to any of your questions.
->>Better to know than to fan the factually incorrect comments the others
-leave
->>in the newsgroups.
->
->I'm not relying on comments here. It's _experience_ I'm talking about. I
-have
->been driving (modified) GP2 for more hours than you watched TV your
-life<G>.
->
->The game runs perfectly well with carsets, new tracks and everything else.
-No
->matter what Mr. Crammond wanted you to believe!
->
->As for the editors being illegal and such: they're all for free, so if you
-see
->any harm in THAT, I don't think I'll waste more time replying.
->
->JoH
->Please remove *anti-spam* from the email when replying.
->=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
->When everything else failed, we can still become im-
->mortal by making an enormous blunder....
->
->                             John Kenneth Galbraith
->=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-
-