Several posts seem to claim that it was not a basal skull fracture, but one
that ran along the length of the skull. It was accompanied by 8 broken ribs and
a collapsed lung. Again, this is based on a previous post here (which I
forgot).
-
Alan
Dale Earnhardt, 1951-2001:
"The Last American Hero"
R.I.P.
For those interested, here is a formula to determine the G force in a
frontal impact.
G's = .0333 x (MPH x MPH) / distance. MPH is the speed at the time of
impact and distance is the stopping distance.
CART medical staff have stated in the past that the highest survivable crash
is around 90 G's. This is in a CART car that has more deformable structure
that a Winston Cup car. It's unknown the exact numbers to use in the
formula for Dale's crash, but by using rough estimates it's pretty obvious
he surpassed the 90 G's by a good margin.
>I haven't seen any definitive statements by the doctors who treated Dale
>that the HANS device definitely wouldn't have saved him. The statements
>I've seen were that "we don't know" or "the HANS device might not have
>saved him".
>Alison
>>It has been said time and time again, a HANS device would not have saved
>>him. The Dr's said so, and the Autopsy Report makes it pretty clear...
>>It was bad luck, nothing more, nothing less...
>>-Larry
>>> You're new to racing apparently. Everyone is familiar with the HANS
>>Device.
>>> NASCAR doesn't mandate it, but it probably should. Dale was very
>>old-school and
>>> refused to use much of the modern safety equipment many other drivers
use.
>>He
>>> died because of it. And no, his life would not have been saved just
>>because of a
>>> HANS system. Ridiculous! :(
>>> --
>>> -------------------------------------
>>> Morgan Vincent Wooten
>>> GPLRank: +10.02
>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~morganv00/
>>> -------------------------------------
>>> > I just saw a news story about the race. In it, they were saying that
>>there
>>> > is this device called H.A.N.S.
>>> > It stands for "Head And Neck Support".
>>> > It's a device that the drivers wear around their shoulders, kind of
like
>>a
>>> > "U" shape device, which has an attachment at the back, for a short
strap
>>> > that goes directly to the back of the helmet.
>>> > The way it works is that, it prevents the head from moving too far
>>forward
>>> > in a front-on crash. When such an accident happens, the neck muscles
on
>>a
>>> > particular driver may be strong, but the problem occurs at the base of
>>the
>>> > skull where the breakage actually occurs.
>>> > They also said that in Nascar, it's not compulsory, as it is in other
>>auto
>>> > sports. Only 4 or 5 drivers are currently using the device. They also
>>said
>>> > that the last 7 deaths that have occured, would have been prevented if
>>the
>>> > drivers were wearing this device.
>>> > According to the story, Dale knew about the device and had seen the
>>videos
>>> > of crash tests, but he didn't want to use it.
>>> > If you like, you can read more about it here:
>>> > http://www.racingone.com/article.asp?artnum=4996
>Alison
>Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
>http://eaglewoman.maximumspeed.net
the doctor did report he did not think the HANS device would have helped
him. I would venture to guess reason being is the internal injuries were
vast and well the head trauma might have been the greatest.
The HANS device is a very good safety item. there are just some iccidents
where nothing is going to help you.
Dave
> > Where can we read the autopsy report?
> > I haven't seen any definitive statements by the doctors who treated
Dale
> > that the HANS device definitely wouldn't have saved him. The
statements
> > I've seen were that "we don't know" or "the HANS device might not have
> > saved him".
> > Alison
> > >It has been said time and time again, a HANS device would not have
saved
> > >him. The Dr's said so, and the Autopsy Report makes it pretty
clear...
> > >It was bad luck, nothing more, nothing less...
> > >-Larry
> > >> You're new to racing apparently. Everyone is familiar with the HANS
> > >Device.
> > >> NASCAR doesn't mandate it, but it probably should. Dale was very
> > >old-school and
> > >> refused to use much of the modern safety equipment many other
drivers
> use.
> > >He
> > >> died because of it. And no, his life would not have been saved just
> > >because of a
> > >> HANS system. Ridiculous! :(
> > >> --
> > >> -------------------------------------
> > >> Morgan Vincent Wooten
> > >> GPLRank: +10.02
> > >> http://home.earthlink.net/~morganv00/
> > >> -------------------------------------
> > >> > I just saw a news story about the race. In it, they were saying
that
> > >there
> > >> > is this device called H.A.N.S.
> > >> > It stands for "Head And Neck Support".
> > >> > It's a device that the drivers wear around their shoulders, kind
of
> like
> > >a
> > >> > "U" shape device, which has an attachment at the back, for a short
> strap
> > >> > that goes directly to the back of the helmet.
> > >> > The way it works is that, it prevents the head from moving too far
> > >forward
> > >> > in a front-on crash. When such an accident happens, the neck
muscles
> on
> > >a
> > >> > particular driver may be strong, but the problem occurs at the
base
> of
> > >the
> > >> > skull where the breakage actually occurs.
> > >> > They also said that in Nascar, it's not compulsory, as it is in
other
> > >auto
> > >> > sports. Only 4 or 5 drivers are currently using the device. They
also
> > >said
> > >> > that the last 7 deaths that have occured, would have been
prevented
> if
> > >the
> > >> > drivers were wearing this device.
> > >> > According to the story, Dale knew about the device and had seen
the
> > >videos
> > >> > of crash tests, but he didn't want to use it.
> > >> > If you like, you can read more about it here:
> > >> > http://www.racingone.com/article.asp?artnum=4996
> > Alison
> > Remove the spam blocker NOSPAM to email me.
> > http://eaglewoman.maximumspeed.net
> Well, I can't state it nearly as well as Joe62 did in the thread "NASCAR
> should be shut down", so I'll just quote him here.
> >You knew it was going to happen, and so did I.
> So did the drivers in the race. Who the hell are you to tell them what
> risks they should be allowed to take?
> Joe McGinn"
> The actual context of his quote may not apply, but IMHO the thought
> itself does. Given most human's safety-conciousness, the bulk of the
> equipment would be worn voluntarily as it is. When it's not my life to
> save or lose, who the hell am I to dictate what *must* be worn?
> Cheers
> --
> Fester
> Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt.
> > That's all true, and indeed I would guess that every safety device can
> > actually be a hindrance under certain conditions, *but* you have to
weigh
> > the benefits against the harm for each device, and if it will save more
> > lives than it takes, then in the long run it's better to have it.
> IMO, it's best to allow the individual who is putting his hide on the
> line to make his own decision, weighing risks against benefits.
> --
> Fester
> Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt.
> That's a "yes" then, you would like to see every piece of safety equipment
> become optional, and many more driver deaths.
--
Fester
> > Well, I can't state it nearly as well as Joe62 did in the thread "NASCAR
> > should be shut down", so I'll just quote him here.
> > >You knew it was going to happen, and so did I.
> > So did the drivers in the race. Who the hell are you to tell them what
> > risks they should be allowed to take?
> > Joe McGinn"
> > The actual context of his quote may not apply, but IMHO the thought
> > itself does. Given most human's safety-conciousness, the bulk of the
> > equipment would be worn voluntarily as it is. When it's not my life to
> > save or lose, who the hell am I to dictate what *must* be worn?
> > Cheers
> > --
> > Fester
> > Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt.
> I don't think we're gonna agree on this one :)
--
Fester
> > > That's all true, and indeed I would guess that every safety device can
> > > actually be a hindrance under certain conditions, *but* you have to
> weigh
> > > the benefits against the harm for each device, and if it will save more
> > > lives than it takes, then in the long run it's better to have it.
> > IMO, it's best to allow the individual who is putting his hide on the
> > line to make his own decision, weighing risks against benefits.
> > --
> > Fester
> > Restrictor plate racing killed Dale Earnhardt.
Smart racers would have turned it left, lifted, and spun it. Those smart
racers wouldn't have his talent nor his 7 Cups nor 76 points wins. The day
prior he saved one that was unsavable, why wouldn't he save this one as
well?
The car came back and, if you've raced enough (real or sim), you know what
snap oversteer is like. Those (relatively) supersoft lefts side gripped as
advertise. At this point, it is unsavable. Up he goes. The collision is
sever. NASCAR doesn't go in for accelerometers, so the exact force produced
isn't precise. I've heard 200+ g's. The car's hood sheers the pins, but
doesn't fly off - the hood teathers don't allow it and I'm not sure they came
in to play. The front end crumples. Up to a point. Some of the force is
absorbed by the car. Not enough though. Much of the force goes into the
body. This test the integrity of the restraining harness. For the first
time in 52 years the webbing fails. The remaining force is still there and
must be absorbed, and the driver is the final place for it to go.
As released today, the trademark open faced helmet comes into play as the
left side lapbelt fails. Not unbuckles. Not frays. The mount doesn't
give. The webbing snaps. 52 years of NASCAR and this is the first failure
of the type. Dale's body shifts to the right and forward. His face was
susceptible to, and recieved severe damage. Little wonder Schrader was quick
to turn and wave paramedics to the sceene. They couldn't know it, but it was
futile.
Back to the advertised topic, had the belt kept him in place, a basal skull
fracture would still have been a distinct possiblity. HANS may need
development, but it also needs a greater audience to work with it.
After this, though, I think we'll soon see a few more drivers in full face
helmets. Junior I hope at least, maybe Spencer (although he's as stubborn as
the Bulldog his home town embraces - Go Dawgs!!!). Trickle might although
he has a practical reason not to, he also has a very persuasive reason to
give up the open face (giving up smoking might be too much to ask for).
I'm hoping for a decade (at least) until the next fatality. If I have to
wait longer, I'll not mind it one bit.
> > > Do we blame Michael and Dale Jr?
> > >Do we blame Kenny Schrader?
> > I don't "blame" Kenny, but my hunch is that the final tip from the
> > presence of Kenny's car put Dale's car at a much higher angle of
> > attack to the wall and significantly increased the force of impact. I
> > think that single factor probably made all the difference. :(
> > Also, someone you didn't mention is Sterling. I'm a Dale fan, but
> > to my eyes Sterling was holding his line and Dale came down into him
> > (either consciously or that's just the way the car went), starting it
> > all off. All of the harrassment that he's getting now over the
> > incident only makes a sad situation that much sadder.
> > Also, I haven't had the heart to watch the replays enough, but what
> > did Dale's spotter say just before the crash? He had been saying
> > "three wide, car low", then there was something different, then Dale
> > moved down the track. Maybe we can "blame" the spotter too while
> > we're at it. :(
On using safety devices, I think that once the drivers get into certain
habits, they stick with them, particularly the older drivers. The fact is
though, that Nascar make the rules, and if Nascar say HANS and full helmets
are mandatory, then the drivers would all use them. It's supposed to be
motor-sport, not a *** bath.
Maybe if there were three deaths per year for the next five years running
you'd all change your minds.
> > I don't think we're gonna agree on this one :)
> LOL!! Possibly. One last try though. ;-) Don't *you* think the
> drivers will do everything reasonable in their eyes to save their own
> backside without being dictated too? I think these regulations do more
> to make the rest of us feel like we're contributing to their safety.
> Kinda removes the collective guilt from our shoulders when/if something
> goes wrong.
> --
> Fester
> > That's a "yes" then, you would like to see every piece of safety equipment
> > become optional, and many more driver deaths.
> No sir, that's an inaccurate paraphrase. What I said was that drivers
> shouldn't be forced into wearing apparatuses (boy, I killed that word!)
> that they themselves don't feel secure with. The vast majority of
> equipment would be worn anyway as a matter of course. They just don't
> need to be dictated to is all.
Safety effort in NASCAR has always lagged behind
Well F1 during the 60s and 70s was killing drivers a lot. One F1 World
Champion never lived to see himself win the championship. Champ cars as
they were called back then were just as bad. Heck the roll bars did not
even get above the drivers head during the 60s in either F1 or Champ cars.
The Dirt Champ cars did not have full cages like Current Sprint cars. Mario
Andretti even mentioned at the beginning of the year you looked around at
all the drivers and wondered who was going to be around at the end of the
season. During this time well Stock cars had full cages with door bars as
they do today. Even during the middle 70s F1 hads problems. Just take one
real good look at Niki Lauda and well you will see the marks left behind
from a crash at the dangerous Ring.
Nascar may be at a point where the corner speeds are just too fast for the
tracks they run right now. CART has the same problem currently, and well
look at what F1 has done to the race tracks it runs on.
also remember the CART drivers who have died in the last few years starting
with Jeff Krosnoff.
IT might be time for NASCAR to look hard at its tracks and its speed of the
cars like F1 and CART have had to do.
Dave
I was very suprised he tried to save it actaully, but being from the same
town as Gordon Smiley its been kinda drummed into my head you never ever
turn right at all on an oval. Gordon's Indy car did the same thing many
years ago at Indy. The result was the same. The cars rear tires gripped
and he turned straight into the wall.
Dave
Think of wheel tethers (C***te and Michigan fans) or soft
barriers (Blundell in Rio) in CART, chicanes (Senna) and greater head
protection (Senna/Wendlinger) in F1, throttle cutoffs (A. Petty and
Irwin) in NASCAR.
Just the same way your local dangerous intersection doesn't get a
traffic light until one or two people die there. Human nature. :|
"But in a way, fear is a big part of racing, because if there was
nothing to be frightened of, and no limit, any fool could get into
a motor car and racing would not exist as a sport." -- Jim Clark
> Well F1 during the 60s and 70s was killing drivers a lot. One F1 World
> Champion never lived to see himself win the championship. Champ cars as
> they were called back then were just as bad. Heck the roll bars did not
> even get above the drivers head during the 60s in either F1 or Champ cars.
> The Dirt Champ cars did not have full cages like Current Sprint cars. Mario
> Andretti even mentioned at the beginning of the year you looked around at
> all the drivers and wondered who was going to be around at the end of the
> season. During this time well Stock cars had full cages with door bars as
> they do today. Even during the middle 70s F1 hads problems. Just take one
> real good look at Niki Lauda and well you will see the marks left behind
> from a crash at the dangerous Ring.
Next question is who is looking into the safety question and what are they
looking at? I'd be willing to be the NSA (CIA isn't permitted to operate in
the US) couldn't find out from NASCAR.
I'd say that it is a distinct possiblity that the next evolutionary step needs
to be taken. Possibly smaller carbs, smaller formula. As to what F1 has done
to their tracks, I'd rather not go there. They've destroyed a lot of tracks
with chicanes and made parades out of races. I don't think NASCAR wants to
consider going down that road. Besides, that's impossible to do with an oval
anyhow, and if I want to see 'stock' cars road racing, there was the Trans-Am
series.
I remember Jeff very well. Jeff Krosnoff, Greg Moore, Scott Brayton, Adam
Petty, Kenny Irwin, Tony Roper. I know I've had to forget a few. Neil Bonnet
happened before I really got into racing - the first NASCAR race I really sat
down to watch was the spring Rockingham race in '95. I've never watched him
run, but with Dale talking about him often, you felt his impact on the sport
seemingly each year.
I think starting with the tracks and then going into the driver's space will be
the next great advancements in safety. It may be time to consider bringing
NASCAR in to the world class arena and have it's own traveling medical staff.
Not that it would have helped Dale, but it's about time.
