rec.autos.simulators

WSC and the West Brothers

Bruce Kennewel

WSC and the West Brothers

by Bruce Kennewel » Mon, 15 Jan 2001 06:10:46

He's not "dictating", Chris.
He's simply placing an argument for civility.

Cut through the bulk of the post and that's what comes out.

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------


Bruce Kennewel

WSC and the West Brothers

by Bruce Kennewel » Mon, 15 Jan 2001 05:52:34

Jens, if you have another look at Tom's post, the core message is simply
this: use some basic manners when posting.

Some people "speak" here in a manner which, I am sure, they would NEVER do
if face-to-face with the other parties.
If the same people who are so blatantly rude when posting to RAS were
gathered together in an auditorium it would either be a very, very quiet
seminar (because nobody would be game to say anything) or, if their
behaviour when confronted in person was REALLY the same as when posting
anonymously, it would be a punch-up.

If you took offence at part, or all, of Tom's post then you are really
objecting to the use of common, garden, courtesy on Usenet, because THAT was
the crux of his message, Jens.

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------



Bruce Kennewel

WSC and the West Brothers

by Bruce Kennewel » Mon, 15 Jan 2001 06:03:22

See what  mean?
A public forum, when attended in person, will "*** (sic) a myriad of
opinions" but the manner in which they are given would not be as rude as
yours.

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------



> >To all members of the sim racing community (if the shoe

fits)...............
Bruce Kennewel

WSC and the West Brothers

by Bruce Kennewel » Mon, 15 Jan 2001 06:07:09

But WHY?
Have they invested money in a business that just might be shonkey?
Have they placed an order, with deposit or full payment, for the product?

Why would anyone be worried about vapourware?
I genuinely do not understand this mentality; if a game is promoted as being
under development and it doesn't eventuate, so what? What is the point of
getting upset over it....unless you've invested in it?

Beats me.
--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------


Double

WSC and the West Brothers

by Double » Mon, 15 Jan 2001 06:16:08

now _this_ is well said......



Jan Verschuere

WSC and the West Brothers

by Jan Verschuere » Mon, 15 Jan 2001 06:27:08

Nice one Bruce, agree, but...

Where's the cause? -As you know I follow RAS quite closely and unless it's
sort of camouflaged by a thread with a non-descriptive header (I skip all
the tech threads about video cards and stuff) I haven't read anything worse
than "WSC looks/sounds like it will be great, can't wait to play it!" or
"how about an alpha demo like GPL or N4?"

Hardly demands and/or rude, IMO, so what's brought out the headmaster in you
and Tom? I just don't see it.

For what it's worth... from what I've read I think Chris is taking vehicle
simulation slightly too far in detail with WSC. Too much effort and
processor load for too little gain in "feel", I fear. Not that I'd mind to
be proved wrong though... ;-)

Jan.
=---
PS.: or don't you know what this is about either and just acting
opportunistically? ;-))

Jan Verschuere

WSC and the West Brothers

by Jan Verschuere » Mon, 15 Jan 2001 06:46:58

Thanks to one of those "mildly annoying" (gotta start watching myself 'round
here ;-)) people who quote an entire post just to say "me too", I've now
read a quote of the offending comment.

The quoted message (containing the quote) hasn't propagated yet and I'm no
closer to finding the original message either, but at least now I know what
all the fuss is about. Not a very nice thing to say, I agree.

Still, life's too short to take a blind bit of notice of what some impatient
person might say about a game that's still at least 6 months away. 6 months
is 6 months, no amount of ***ing can speed the passage of time,
unfortunately. :-)

Jan.
=---

Simon Brow

WSC and the West Brothers

by Simon Brow » Mon, 15 Jan 2001 07:18:48

In your opinion maybe.  For Tom to start talking about the dead of 2 world
wars to justify gagging honest opinions is at least a little ridiculous.
I'm sure the West Brothers are not offended by anything they read here, and
are perfectly capable of defending themselves when the need arises.

It goes without saying that most posters here support both the West Brothers
and their project and want it to be a success.  It also goes without saying
that the majority here want it to be released only when finished.

If some idiot posts a message criticizing the West Brothers (for whatever
reason), we don't need some knight in shining armour to jump up and down on
the poster.  Tom's post was way over-the-top in my opinion, whether I agree
with his sentiments or not.


Jens H. Kruus

WSC and the West Brothers

by Jens H. Kruus » Mon, 15 Jan 2001 07:28:21


> Jens, if you have another look at Tom's post, the core message is simply
> this: use some basic manners when posting.

Bruce, did you read my post carefully? My core message was: I agree with
you on goal but not method or philosophy.

Very well put!

Sorry, Bruce. We will have to disagree on this point. I believe that
there are two parts of a posting: message/content and style. It is
possible to write a post with a perfectly sensible and reasonable
message (the essence or crux) in an offensive style. One fictitious
example could be: "I am much smarter than you all, and I say that GPL is
a good sim so that must be the truth!"***y little ***, aren't I? :-)

Anyway, what I am saying is that just because I dispute Tom's arguments
does not mean that I think he is fundamentally wrong on this issue. His
reasoning is flawed, as far as I am concerned, but that's just my
opinion, which I think I'm entitled to express politely. The way I read
Tom's post, he doesn't think I am!

In a similar vein, Bruce, you say that if I took offense to parts of
Tom's message, then I'm against common courtesy? Come again? What if I
alter only the first line of his post to something like: "Dear inferior
beings". (My exaggerated example). The post would have exactly the same
message but would be offensive to most. I hope you see my point.

In fact, you are doing something similar to Tom by stating that if my
beliefs are offended by parts of Tom's post, then I am against common
courtesy. That is a mighty high horse, you're riding there. :-)

Incidentally, I wrote that I didn't take offense as none was intended.
Or so I was led to believe. The same goes for your remark. None taken.

Thanx for your comments, Bruce.

Cheers,
Jens

Simon Brow

WSC and the West Brothers

by Simon Brow » Mon, 15 Jan 2001 07:35:33


I guess because sadly there's little else on the horizon to look forward to
that promises as much as WSC does.  For sim racing fans the future looks
kinda bleak, theres N4, a few dodgy (probably) F1 games and WSC.

It's easy to understand impatience when release dates slip, even if I don't
share that impatience.

Simon Brow

WSC and the West Brothers

by Simon Brow » Mon, 15 Jan 2001 07:52:23

Is this-

""  Lots of people, have given up their lives willingly......so I can type
this
message to you today.  There was a time in the history of this world, within
my lifetime even....when that wouldn't have been possible.  These valuable
lives.....those people who were "sons, daughters, fathers, brothers,
sisters, mothers, grandparents" to many people alive today......some of whom
are likely to be visitors of this newsgroup......these lives were not spent
so we could just "post" any old thing that comes to our mind.  Their lives
gave us the "gift" of this forum......with this gift comes the
"responsibility" for us to preserve it for others, now and in the future.
Being rude, abusive, foul and stupid......isn't being "responsible!"   ""

-a *reasonable* argument for civility?  There are good arguments for
civility, but drawing on the debt of those who gave their lives in two world
wars isn't one of them.  This is just meaningless diatribe.


ymenar

WSC and the West Brothers

by ymenar » Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:26:35


> I am concerned about some posts I've read recently containing disparaging
> remarks about the West brothers....and the "time" they are taking to
create
> WSC.

<snip>

We must be reading different newsgroups, because I haven't seen such thing
Tom.  So *1* person said a harsh comment, wow <g>.  Anyway there is a lack
of communication between the West bros. and the community since a few
months, so I understand why some people are a little anxious.  I am myself.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

ymenar

WSC and the West Brothers

by ymenar » Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:29:15


> Why would anyone be worried about vapourware?

Because some people care for the sake of the business that is motorsports
racing simulations, and dislike seeing turds being released on the market
hyped like they are serious simulations.  They just want better products on
the market, like people "vapourware" almost any kind of entertainment
(movies, music, television, etc..)

Personally I don't care, I'll be waiting whatever it takes to finish it the
way the West bros. want it to be.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

ymenar

WSC and the West Brothers

by ymenar » Mon, 15 Jan 2001 09:33:18


> Some people "speak" here in a manner which, I am sure, they would NEVER do
> if face-to-face with the other parties

A crusade to make people change their attitude on the Usenet.  LMAO It's
just the true nature of chaos.  The Usenet is an anarchic community with a
total lack of order, you'll never be able to create such utopia Bruce.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Bruce Kennewel

WSC and the West Brothers

by Bruce Kennewel » Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:41:32

My remarks were not directly related to either Messrs West or their work,
Jan.

They were aimed, in support of those of Mr. Pabst, at those who feel that it
is unnecessary (or they don't know how) to apply basic manners when it comes
to communicating via Usenet, that was all.

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------



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