rec.autos.simulators

On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 15:19:38 GMT, "Steve Blankenship"

...

I think linear would do ok here. As lowspeed~10km/h and
highspeed~300km/h. So the max POV angle changes linearly as well, so
decays from say 15 degrees at 10km/h to 3 degrees at 300km/h
gradually. Piece of cake formulawise.

Yep, I have on my wishlist a generic SMD (spring-mass-damper) class
which acts like a filter. Would be useful for a lot of things (like
head movement in response to G-forces for example).

Thanks, I may have a test tomorrow or something.
Ruud

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Pencil art  : http://www.racesimcentral.net/

<post snipped>

Thanks for the considered reply, Tom.

I agree that the POR, as you call it, is generally within a sim's POV;
certainly it is at any significant speed.  I do however, find that some POV
rotation at low speeds not only feels quite natural in use, but is helpful
in sighting my exit line as I'm apexing in a tight corner.  Say you're in a
tight left-hand 180 at 30 mph; are you not looking past the A pillar in real
life?

FWIW, I've run some laps in F1-2002 switching back and forth between a
***pit view with moving POV and a custom camera view that matches the
***pit view but without rotation, and my laptimes didn't suffer or benefit
from either.  But the moving one felt better somehow, I suspect because I
had tweaked the rotation to closely match my POR.  If it didn't, it would be
awful, as was the case with CPR.  Speed sensitivity would help a lot here,
due to POR being a function of time and thus driven by speed.

Hey, as long as you can tweak it or turn it off... ;-)

SB

Steve...

I think those rare circumstances (like you describe in the 180 degree/ 30
mph turn) your brain would default to that "suspend mode"  as it does in the
same situations I described (#1, #2, #3) above.....maybe in an open wheel
car, you'd turn your head to pick up the POR.  But, boy....that would be the
rare case.  The rest of the time the moving POV would totally***you up.
And as you stated, how much would that rarely used ability...help you?  Not
much, if at all.  Do you really need to see the apex...or even the
exit....on a 30mph - 180 degree turn?  Nah!  And, the POR would only still
be out of view...for a brief moment....even at that low speed.

Now the speed sensitive movement of the POV......might be something that
could be helpful maybe during traversing accidents scenes.....or in pace for
a start or restart.  But, even in those situations.....I kind of doubt it.
Remember, as your speed reduces.....the POR moves closer to the nose of the
car....and thus, tends to always remain fairly in front of or within the
on-screen POV (of 75 to 90 degrees).  You don't keep your POR out there a
100 yards down track, when you are only going 30 mph!  You know?

TP

  You thesis maintains that a driver rarely looks from side to side much...
  But I seem to remember images...photos...of open***pit drivers who are
craning thier head almost 90 degrees to view the upcomming corner.   Could
just be a figment of my imagination tho.
    Granted modern Open wheel cars leave little room for head movement,
Stock cars too for that matter....but I wonder about other classes.  Do the
Touring cars lock in the drivers helmet?    Sports cars?  Prototypes?  Just
how much lateral head movement do most formulas allow these days?

dave henrie

You can clearly see the drivers looking into the turns in any modern F1
race.

Dave...

I think the issue of driver's head movement is not limited by the class of
car, or race car type.  This is about the dynamics of head movement in
general, when racing.  You don't move your head to capture the POR because
its nearly always within your straight ahead POV.  The movement of the
driver's head you detect on film or in pictures maybe more related to some
drivers who do this to check mirrors (at extreme angles).....or something
like that.  I'm not an open wheel racer, but I have put a lot of laps in
many open wheel cars.  While my head movement freedom is greater in an open
wheel car....I don't really use it in the manner described that would make
having a moving POV in a sim - more realistic.  Its just doesn't happen that
way in any type of race car.  I'm talking about the normal and natural head
movement.....which is straight ahead (virtually) 99% of the time.

Maybe your driver was sneezing....or checking out a babe.....lol...  Heck, I
don't know.....but its not a regular and normal thing to move your head's
POV to capture your racing Point of Reference (besides, you'd do that with
eye movement...not your head).

TP

Dave -- The thing we need to remember whenever we read one of Tom's
sermons is this is the bloke who was sick after playing Nascar and
attributed his sickness to the immersion factor of his simulator! If you
can be bothered to wade through all the verbiage it can generally be
summarized in a couple of lines which are usually based on the physics
of fluffy bunny land.

The West's told me he approached them with a business proposition which
they politely turned down, wonder why? ;)

Gerry

Just a fine point (that probably doesn't need making... ;-))

What we're talking about here is not so much head movement, which sims deal
with by allowing g-force induced movement relative to the***pit, but eye
movement - focal point.  Tom's right in that a moving POV is not much, if
any, use at speed; but I, on the other hand am indubitably correct in that
it's useful at low speeds.  Definitely a low speed thingy.

All clear now?  ;-)

SB

PS - If you're curious and have F1-2002, play with it a bit and see for
yourself - just keep the glance angle very low, or bring a barf bag.  But to
be more current, just watch the POV follow steering input in LFS... ;-)

Steve, what you say makes perfect sense, unlike what Tom says. ;)

I've tried this in F12002 and straightaway I was aware that I didn't
even notice the shift in POV. That's because it's perfectly natural and
realistic.

Gerry

On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 11:23:19 GMT, "Steve Blankenship"

And in Racer beta 6 it will be included as well, speed-sensitive. I
just put it in yesterday and it seemed ok (but that was with a mouse).
Will have to try with steering wheels and various angles, but well,
the options are there (including disabling it), so people can
experiment, which is half the fun ofcourse. ;-)

Just have to zip out some other bugs that are keeping beta 6 from
being released (of which not all are trivial by far).

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Ruud!

So I'll be able to use my head tracker in mouse emulation mode?

Gerry

Cool! Look forward to trying it out; always fun to have more knobs to
twiddle with..

SB

On Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:33:24 +0100, Gerry Aitken

Indeed; didn't follow things too carefully, but mouse emulation mode
sounds like what you need. However, this means your head tracker will
define steering as well (since the steering wheel determines
POV_delta_angle).

I think what you'd need is a separate control, just like
throttle/pedal etc. that determine the 'povAngle' control,
independently from steering. Does that sound right?

That would be doable, though a little niche for most people. ;-)
But niche features is something that's a nice thing about Racer; I can
do them if I like. :) Little trinkets that add depth and a special
feel.

If undefined, the povAngle control should follow the steering control
then I guess. Perhaps something generic like that could be done, so
normally, povAngle WOULD follow steering directly (for all the other
users), and you could set 'independent' mode or something.

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

Ruud, you're a star, mate. :)

Yes I'd need the mouse to have exclusive control over POV through the x
axis only. Preferably with an adjustable dead zone at the centre. Is
that doable?

You're right, this is a little niche ATM, but so was my CH flight yoke
back in 92. The guy in the shop couldn't understand why I wanted to play
GP1 with it!

Niche today, mass market tomorrow. Well mass racing sim market anyway.

This hasn't been don in any racing sim, so you'll be breaking new
ground. :)

Thanks

Gerry

whatwhatwhatwhatwhatwhat?  does this mean I can get look left/right on
a separate axis?  if that's the case, I'm tearing apart an old
joystick and glue one of the pots to my wheel RIGHT NOW.

Gunnar, hyperventilating.
--
Gunnar
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