rec.autos.simulators

by **Pat Dotso** » Wed, 19 May 1999 04:00:00

> My question is this. If drivers choose to use FF online, wont they be
> at a disadvantage? I would think that having to deal with more
> feedback would give the individuals using non-FF wheels an advantage
> because they could be smoother, etc.

When running *without* FF, you can definitely get away with
sloppier driving. I think FF will actually make you drive
more smoothly. I'm not sure yet if it will be a disadvantage
or not.

It's a lot like the difference between driving with a wheel
or a joystick - with a joystick you can make faster steering
corrections than you can with a wheel. FF sort of slows
down the wheel even more. The upside to FF, of course, is
that you have a better idea of how the car is handling, and
should be able to better avoid getting out of control.

Without FF I tend to slide a lot more and generally just
drive with a loose style. FF makes me drive much more
smoothly, and my lap times are more consistent too.

Bottom line, for hotlapping, it will probably be hard to
match non-FF times with a FF wheel, because in hotlapping
you are just memorizing a perfect lap and executing it
from memory. There really isn't a lot of reaction involved.

For racing, though, FF allows better handling in several
ways. One, if you are off the normal pace, it's easier
to corner at the limit. Two, it's easier to take different
lines through a corner. Both of these things make driving
in traffic easier.

Another big plus for FF is that it seems to lessen sensory
overload while racing. Typically, you have to visually
assess both how the car is handling and what traffic is
doing. With FF, I'm not spending as much energy trying
to evaluate handling because a lot of that information
is coming through the wheel, and reactions are purely
reflexive. That allows more attention to be paid to what
other cars are doing, or what line I want to take.

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

by **Griff** » Wed, 19 May 1999 04:00:00

>> My question is this. If drivers choose to use FF online, wont they be
>> at a disadvantage? I would think that having to deal with more
>> feedback would give the individuals using non-FF wheels an advantage
>> because they could be smoother, etc.

>When running *without* FF, you can definitely get away with
>sloppier driving. I think FF will actually make you drive
>more smoothly. I'm not sure yet if it will be a disadvantage
>or not.

>It's a lot like the difference between driving with a wheel
>or a joystick - with a joystick you can make faster steering
>corrections than you can with a wheel. FF sort of slows
>down the wheel even more. The upside to FF, of course, is
>that you have a better idea of how the car is handling, and
>should be able to better avoid getting out of control.

>Without FF I tend to slide a lot more and generally just
>drive with a loose style. FF makes me drive much more
>smoothly, and my lap times are more consistent too.

>Bottom line, for hotlapping, it will probably be hard to
>match non-FF times with a FF wheel, because in hotlapping
>you are just memorizing a perfect lap and executing it
>from memory. There really isn't a lot of reaction involved.

>For racing, though, FF allows better handling in several
>ways. One, if you are off the normal pace, it's easier
>to corner at the limit. Two, it's easier to take different
>lines through a corner. Both of these things make driving
>in traffic easier.

>Another big plus for FF is that it seems to lessen sensory
>overload while racing. Typically, you have to visually
>assess both how the car is handling and what traffic is
>doing. With FF, I'm not spending as much energy trying
>to evaluate handling because a lot of that information
>is coming through the wheel, and reactions are purely
>reflexive. That allows more attention to be paid to what
>other cars are doing, or what line I want to take.

>--
>Pat Dotson
>IMPACT Motorsports
>http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Never having used FF, in any sim, I'm not entirely sure just how spot
on the FF can be, however I would assume that it's quite close to
being very real indeed. If this is the case I can certainly see how
improvements could be make to lap times for people who use it.

One of the problems I have sometimes found myself having is at Monaco,
for example. Just before the [what has newly been named...] Grand
Hotel corner, there's the sharp left hander, which is more or less a
180* turn. Depending on your setup, some may require to use the full
steering lock, and that's where problems can occur. I've often found
myself going just a tad too quickly, and dispite the full steering
lock, the car continues to drive forward. Now, with force feedback
however, I would be able to _fell_ if the car has handling OK on the
corner _before_ I hit the wall.

At the moment however, I'm screwed! ;-)

What really would be wonderful is if there were an FF wheel which ALSO
had FF pedels, so you could _feel_ when you were braking too harsh, or
accelerating too quickly. Now that would be a GREAT improvement to
GPL!

Griffin, the Slayer

by **David L. Coo** » Wed, 19 May 1999 04:00:00

> Another big plus for FF is that it seems to lessen sensory
> overload while racing. Typically, you have to visually
> assess both how the car is handling and what traffic is
> doing. With FF, I'm not spending as much energy trying
> to evaluate handling because a lot of that information
> is coming through the wheel, and reactions are purely
> reflexive. That allows more attention to be paid to what
> other cars are doing, or what line I want to take.

Man - I look forward to that! I sometimes wonder if I even "blink" during a
race. So much intensity. My eye's are always dry when I'm done. It will
be nice to take some of the load off them.

Do you know of a way that I can use a FF Wheel (like the Logitech) with my
TSW2 pedals? I really like my pedals (the wheel is gonna be hard to put
down too). Maybe someday Thomas Enterprises will pull through with FF...

David L. Cook

by **David L. Coo** » Wed, 19 May 1999 04:00:00

Thanks! Looking forward to your response :)

> I'll try it tonight and let you know how these devices work with the LWFF. :)

by **Chris Schlette** » Wed, 19 May 1999 04:00:00

Don't hold yer breath on the last part. :) But, you should be able to use
both the Logitech and TSW2 pedals. Keep your TSW2 plugged into the
gameport, plug the LWFF in as a USB controler (runs on its own gameport).
Make sure both are calibrated in WIndows for sanity. Then go into GPL and
you should be able to calibrate both wheels and both sets of pedals as GPL
looks through at least 11 axii I do believe (think Randy said GPL1.1 will do
16...mms). Anyways, once you have it calibrated, just do as normal and
select the logitech wheel for steering and pedals for pedalling. :) It
might work, would have to try it at home and see if I can't get this to work
since I have at least 4 different control devices to play with. I'll try it
tonight and let you know how these devices work with the LWFF. :)

by **Pat Dotso** » Wed, 19 May 1999 04:00:00

> Never having used FF, in any sim, I'm not entirely sure just how spot
> on the FF can be, however I would assume that it's quite close to
> being very real indeed. If this is the case I can certainly see how
> improvements could be make to lap times for people who use it.

As I said, I'll be very surprised if anyone ever beats
the current GPL non-FF records and sets a new world record
with FF enabled. That's not at all meant as a put down
to FF, it's in fact a tribute. Driving with FF requires
a more realistic driving style, which doesn't lend itself
to fast hotlaps.

Without FF, you can slip and slide to your hearts content
without paying much of a penalty. With FF, you will pay
a price for not driving smoothly.

If you drive into that turn too fast, even with FF,
you'll still be screwed - you'll just know you're
screwed sooner! :)

That's what tire squeal is for. I'm not sure how that
information could be passed through pedals, either in
a sim or in real life.

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

by **Pat Dotso** » Wed, 19 May 1999 04:00:00

> Do you know of a way that I can use a FF Wheel (like the Logitech) with my
> TSW2 pedals? I really like my pedals (the wheel is gonna be hard to put
> down too). Maybe someday Thomas Enterprises will pull through with FF...

Yes. All you have to do is have both controllers
connected to your computer, and have both devices
configured in Win9X. GPL will recognize both
devices, and you can assign controls in whatever
combination you want. It's a piece of cake.

My setup is an ACT Labs Force RS connected to a
serial port, with some home-built pedals connected
to a PDPI L4. Combined with a BSG Labs Intensor
LX chair and sub-woofer, it's heaven :)

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

by **Harjan Bran** » Wed, 19 May 1999 04:00:00

Feeling the brakes is something that happens, but as far as response from
the throttle that's absolute impossible. It's just linked to the engine, so
you won't get any feedback from it.

>>> My question is this. If drivers choose to use FF online, wont they be
>>> at a disadvantage? I would think that having to deal with more
>>> feedback would give the individuals using non-FF wheels an advantage
>>> because they could be smoother, etc.

>>When running *without* FF, you can definitely get away with
>>sloppier driving. I think FF will actually make you drive
>>more smoothly. I'm not sure yet if it will be a disadvantage
>>or not.

>>It's a lot like the difference between driving with a wheel
>>or a joystick - with a joystick you can make faster steering
>>corrections than you can with a wheel. FF sort of slows
>>down the wheel even more. The upside to FF, of course, is
>>that you have a better idea of how the car is handling, and
>>should be able to better avoid getting out of control.

>>Without FF I tend to slide a lot more and generally just
>>drive with a loose style. FF makes me drive much more
>>smoothly, and my lap times are more consistent too.

>>Bottom line, for hotlapping, it will probably be hard to
>>match non-FF times with a FF wheel, because in hotlapping
>>you are just memorizing a perfect lap and executing it
>>from memory. There really isn't a lot of reaction involved.

>>For racing, though, FF allows better handling in several
>>ways. One, if you are off the normal pace, it's easier
>>to corner at the limit. Two, it's easier to take different
>>lines through a corner. Both of these things make driving
>>in traffic easier.

>>Another big plus for FF is that it seems to lessen sensory
>>overload while racing. Typically, you have to visually
>>assess both how the car is handling and what traffic is
>>doing. With FF, I'm not spending as much energy trying
>>to evaluate handling because a lot of that information
>>is coming through the wheel, and reactions are purely
>>reflexive. That allows more attention to be paid to what
>>other cars are doing, or what line I want to take.

>>--
>>Pat Dotson
>>IMPACT Motorsports
>>http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

>Never having used FF, in any sim, I'm not entirely sure just how spot
>on the FF can be, however I would assume that it's quite close to
>being very real indeed. If this is the case I can certainly see how
>improvements could be make to lap times for people who use it.

>One of the problems I have sometimes found myself having is at Monaco,
>for example. Just before the [what has newly been named...] Grand
>Hotel corner, there's the sharp left hander, which is more or less a
>180* turn. Depending on your setup, some may require to use the full
>steering lock, and that's where problems can occur. I've often found
>myself going just a tad too quickly, and dispite the full steering
>lock, the car continues to drive forward. Now, with force feedback
>however, I would be able to _fell_ if the car has handling OK on the
>corner _before_ I hit the wall.

>At the moment however, I'm screwed! ;-)

>What really would be wonderful is if there were an FF wheel which ALSO
>had FF pedels, so you could _feel_ when you were braking too harsh, or
>accelerating too quickly. Now that would be a GREAT improvement to
>GPL!

>Griffin, the Slayer

by **Griff** » Wed, 19 May 1999 04:00:00

Not in GPL you can't!

GPL is the most unforgiving simulator available!

... which gives you more time to react.

Try to imagine what would happen if people who drive real cars relied
on sound alone to judge when they were braking to hard.

Griffin, the Slayer

by Jo » Wed, 19 May 1999 04:00:00

>As I said, I'll be very surprised if anyone ever beats
>the current GPL non-FF records and sets a new world record
>with FF enabled.

I agree - but it may should slower drivers improve their laptimes, if
the implementation is good enough.

Joe

by Jo » Wed, 19 May 1999 04:00:00

>Try to imagine what would happen if people who drive real cars relied
>on sound alone to judge when they were braking to hard.

I think it's more "seat of the pants" feel that detects lockup in real
life.

Joe

by **Chris Schlette** » Wed, 19 May 1999 04:00:00

Works dandy David. :) Just plug both wheels/pedals in and GPL will
calibrate them just fine and then you can use whatever axis you want for the
various controls. :)

> Thanks! Looking forward to your response :)

> > I'll try it tonight and let you know how these devices work with the
LWFF. :)

by **Griffin, the Slay** » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00

>>Try to imagine what would happen if people who drive real cars relied
>>on sound alone to judge when they were braking to hard.

>I think it's more "seat of the pants" feel that detects lockup in real
>life.

>Joe

Only in part.

I've done an emergency brake in my Ford Mondeo, and you can _feel_
when the car is about to skid. The pressure builds up behind the brake
pedal.

Griffin, the Slayer

by **Pat Dotso** » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00

> >Without FF, you can slip and slide to your hearts content
> >without paying much of a penalty. With FF, you will pay
> >a price for not driving smoothly.

> Not in GPL you can't!

In GPL I can.

React to being screwed?

How can you tell that the wheels are either
locked up, or spinning, from the pedals? I think you
can't tell either. In a real car, there are a lot
of other cues telling you what the wheels are doing.

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

by **Griffin, the Slay** » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00

> >Without FF, you can slip and slide to your hearts content
> >without paying much of a penalty. With FF, you will pay
> >a price for not driving smoothly.

> Not in GPL you can't!
>In GPL I can.

So, in a race with other cars, you can slide the car from one side to
the other, and back again, several times, on the verge of spinning and
you won't have much of a time or even a damage penalty?

Man, you must be a _much_ better driver than the rest of us!

:)

Probably. :)

Of course a car is completely different to even the most realistic of
simulators, and yes there are many other factors involved when harsh
braking in a real car. One of the most important is weight, where you
can feel the car leaning forward.

Griffin, the Slayer

rec.autos.simulators

Question about FF (and some answers)

Question about FF (and some answers)

Question about FF (and some answers)

Question about FF (and some answers)

Question about FF (and some answers)

Question about FF (and some answers)

Question about FF (and some answers)

Question about FF (and some answers)

Question about FF (and some answers)

Question about FF (and some answers)

Question about FF (and some answers)

Question about FF (and some answers)

Question about FF (and some answers)

Question about FF (and some answers)

Question about FF (and some answers)

Question about FF (and some answers)