rec.autos.simulators

Question about FF (and some answers)

Jack Ramb

Question about FF (and some answers)

by Jack Ramb » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00

Griffin...

Welcome to RAS!

To give you a little insight...

Yes! Pat *IS* a much better driver than the rest us of us! You won't find
anyone here that will contest that point.

There really aren't many, if any, people on RAS whose skill or knowledge is
such that they can offer Pat insight on the fundamentals of car performance
or sim racing.

And by the way, and I say this in a well-meaning way, newsgroups are like
race tracks. It pays to take it easy and get familiar with the course before
you go tearing around at breakneck speed.

Jack Rambo

www.RaceLive.com/GPaL

Greg Cisk

Question about FF (and some answers)

by Greg Cisk » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00


>Yes! Pat *IS* a much better driver than the rest us of us! You won't find
>anyone here that will contest that point.

I might :-)

Oh boy...

--

Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Pat Dotso

Question about FF (and some answers)

by Pat Dotso » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00


> So, in a race with other cars, you can slide the car from one side to
> the other, and back again, several times, on the verge of spinning and
> you won't have much of a time or even a damage penalty?

The context was hotlapping, not racing.  Yes, it's possible to
get pretty far sideways without it costing *much* time.

Better than some, worse than others :)

Right, and little if any information about the traction
patch is transmitted through the pedals.  A FF pedal
would be able to present brake fade and wear, but that's
a fairly esoteric thing considering that we barely have
good steering FF.  IMO, it wouldn't add much to the
experience.

BTW, I may want to retract my statements about ultimate
FF v. non-FF lap times.  I just ran a 1:19.8 at Kyalami,
which is only a few tenths off my personal best ever.
It's not remotely a WR, but it's faster than I was able
to do in the same sitting with a non-FF wheel (1:19.9).

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Marko Viitane

Question about FF (and some answers)

by Marko Viitane » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00

How about the FF pedals?

they would be great...:P


Greg Cisk

Question about FF (and some answers)

by Greg Cisk » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00


>BTW, I may want to retract my statements about ultimate
>FF v. non-FF lap times.  I just ran a 1:19.8 at Kyalami,
>which is only a few tenths off my personal best ever.
>It's not remotely a WR, but it's faster than I was able
>to do in the same sitting with a non-FF wheel (1:19.9).

I have noticed that the Logitech FF wheel is *WAY* more
accurate and precise than my old crappy T2. You can really
put the car where you want.

--

Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

cisko [AT] ix [DOT] netcom [DOT] com

Harjan Bran

Question about FF (and some answers)

by Harjan Bran » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00

The part of feedback from the throttle is absolute nonsense, but the
feedback from the brake pedal is a fact. I race Formula Ford and besides the
feel of the car, the vision (front wheels locking up) you get some feedback
from the brake pedal on what your wheels are doing. Combining those three
for me is the indicator whether I'm braking on the limit or not. Ofcourse in
a roadcar it's somewhat different (no vision for example). In a road car I
use mainly my brake pedal and the sound (but that's often somewhat too late
and very dependent on the surface).


>> >Without FF, you can slip and slide to your hearts content
>> >without paying much of a penalty.  With FF, you will pay
>> >a price for not driving smoothly.

>> Not in GPL you can't!

>In GPL I can.

>> >If you drive into that turn too fast, even with FF,
>> >you'll still be screwed - you'll just know you're
>> >screwed sooner! :)

>> ... which gives you more time to react.

>React to being screwed?

>> Try to imagine what would happen if people who drive real cars relied
>> on sound alone to judge when they were braking to hard.

>How can you tell that the wheels are either
>locked up, or spinning, from the pedals?  I think you
>can't tell either.  In a real car, there are a lot
>of other cues telling you what the wheels are doing.

>--
>Pat Dotson
>IMPACT Motorsports
>http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Pat Dotso

Question about FF (and some answers)

by Pat Dotso » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00


> The part of feedback from the throttle is absolute nonsense, but the
> feedback from the brake pedal is a fact. I race Formula Ford and besides the

What does the brake pedal do that tells you if
the wheels are locking up?

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Harjan Bran

Question about FF (and some answers)

by Harjan Bran » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00

Well in any not powered braking system the stuttering (don't know whether
this is english or not) the almost locking wheel does communicates through
the brake pedal.
As soon as the wheel nearly locks it starts to "vibrate" that's very much
noticable through the brake pedal.



>> The part of feedback from the throttle is absolute nonsense, but the
>> feedback from the brake pedal is a fact. I race Formula Ford and besides
the

>What does the brake pedal do that tells you if
>the wheels are locking up?

>--
>Pat Dotson
>IMPACT Motorsports
>http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

dolle_d..

Question about FF (and some answers)

by dolle_d.. » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00




> > >Without FF, you can slip and slide to your hearts content

> How can you tell that the wheels are either
> locked up, or spinning, from the pedals?  I think you
> can't tell either.  In a real car, there are a lot
> of other cues telling you what the wheels are doing.

My best guess would be that at the point where the wheels are starting
to block, and the brake disc is no longer giving friction to the pads,
that the force that you feel when pressing the pedal would lessen
somewhat.  In a computer generated model this would probably be the
best way to simulate the feeling of pressing harder and harder on the
pedal, getting more and more decelleration, until you reach the point
where pressing even more has no effect (and no further decelleration
occurs as the wheels are blocking.)  IN that case you would have a
sensory input of getting to the point of maximal
resistance/decelleration, without crossing the line of lessened
resistance, a sign that the wheels are starting to block. Of course, as
you say, there are other clues when slamming the brakes on a real
vehicle (car, motorbike, pushbike).

Dolle DOlf

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---

Griffin, the Slay

Question about FF (and some answers)

by Griffin, the Slay » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00

I've been using RAS for a long, long time now. I did however use a
different e-mail account in the past to what I am using now.

I don't see anybody _tearing around at breakneck speed_.

Griffin, the Slayer

Griffin, the Slay

Question about FF (and some answers)

by Griffin, the Slay » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00


> So, in a race with other cars, you can slide the car from one side to
> the other, and back again, several times, on the verge of spinning and
> you won't have much of a time or even a damage penalty?
>The context was hotlapping, not racing.  Yes, it's possible to
>get pretty far sideways without it costing *much* time.

Perhaps I just need a little more practise. ;)

Which reminds me of a question I thought up last night. I haven't used
FF on a PC, ever, however I have used it hundreds of times (and yes, I
do mean _hundreds) in the arcades, with the likes of Sega Rally,
Datyona USA, etc.

Is the FF style control of those arcad machines much different to how
it is on the PC? If it's exactly the same, I doubt I will be spending
a couple of hundred pounds on an FF controller, as I don't feel
they're quite advanced enough yet.

Griffin, the Slayer

Griffin, the Slay

Question about FF (and some answers)

by Griffin, the Slay » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00

On Wed, 19 May 1999 17:26:17 +0200, "Harjan Brand"


>The part of feedback from the throttle is absolute nonsense, but the
>feedback from the brake pedal is a fact.

You're right about that. The only reason I suggested 'both' pedals
have some sort of feedback is that it would be difficult to drive with
one pedal with FF and not the other...

Griffin, the Slayer

Pat Dotso

Question about FF (and some answers)

by Pat Dotso » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00


> Which reminds me of a question I thought up last night. I haven't used
> FF on a PC, ever, however I have used it hundreds of times (and yes, I
> do mean _hundreds) in the arcades, with the likes of Sega Rally,
> Datyona USA, etc.

> Is the FF style control of those arcad machines much different to how
> it is on the PC? If it's exactly the same, I doubt I will be spending
> a couple of hundred pounds on an FF controller, as I don't feel
> they're quite advanced enough yet.

The only arcade machine with FF that impressed me
was Hard Drivin'.  It's from Atari and came out
maybe ten years ago.  None of the others seem
very good.  GPL FF is much much better.

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

Griffin, the Slay

Question about FF (and some answers)

by Griffin, the Slay » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00




>> Which reminds me of a question I thought up last night. I haven't used
>> FF on a PC, ever, however I have used it hundreds of times (and yes, I
>> do mean _hundreds) in the arcades, with the likes of Sega Rally,
>> Datyona USA, etc.

>> Is the FF style control of those arcad machines much different to how
>> it is on the PC? If it's exactly the same, I doubt I will be spending
>> a couple of hundred pounds on an FF controller, as I don't feel
>> they're quite advanced enough yet.

>The only arcade machine with FF that impressed me
>was Hard Drivin'.  It's from Atari and came out
>maybe ten years ago.  None of the others seem
>very good.  GPL FF is much much better.

>--
>Pat Dotson
>IMPACT Motorsports
>http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html

I remember Hard Driving, but I don't rememeber ever playing a version
with FF. Then again, it was a very long time ago.

I did enjoy the clutch however...

Griffin, the Slayer

Jo

Question about FF (and some answers)

by Jo » Thu, 20 May 1999 04:00:00


>I have noticed that the Logitech FF wheel is *WAY* more
>accurate and precise than my old crappy T2. You can really
>put the car where you want.

I agree (using a USB connection).

Joe


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