rec.autos.simulators

by **Keepe** » Fri, 01 Oct 1999 04:00:00

My T2 is really getting worn out, so I'm thinking of picking up a new,
Force Feedback wheel. My only options, among the ones we sell at the
store where I work, are the Saitek and the Logitech (we have the Microsoft
too but I've seen so many of them break, and they don't have dual-axis
pedals so I know to avoid it). I'm curious about how they have stood
the test of time for those who own them. Anyone had problems with them?

Here are my pluses and minuses as I see them other than the unknown
longevity factor:

Saitek's has nicer pedals, but their lack of play makes me wonder if I
can be as precise with my footwork as I could with the T2 (apart from
being unable to trailbrake). It has a stickshift, which I like, in
addition to the paddles. Downside is I'm not so sure how good the
self-centering is on a unit that requires power to accomplish that.
It can translate up-and-down forces into the left-and-right axis, which
may or may not be nice. It has plenty of turning radius.

Logitech's centers by itself without power, and feels a little sturdier.
Its pedals downright suck. I don't know if I could get used to using
them, driving as I do in my socks. The pedal unit looks heavier, though.
I'm not sure if its pedals have any more play than the Saitek's, as we
don't have a unit on display and it's been a while since I've touched one.
It supports I-Force, which a couple older games I occasionally play (like
SODA Off-Road Racing) require. I don't remember how much turning radius
it has.

I presume neither unit requires calibration. I know the Saitek doesn't,
as we've had one on demo before. I've never felt the Logitech in action,
so have no idea how its forces compare.

--

http://www.racesimcentral.net/~keeper/toons.html - Animaniacs, P&TB, F!, etc. files
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~keeper/midi.html - My own MIDI files - Updated 5 Dec.

by **Maps** » Fri, 01 Oct 1999 04:00:00

I'm wondering about the Saitek wheel too. CompUSA, about the only
place with FF wheels I can get to, has only the MS wheel and the
Saitek wheel. Seems from the box like the Saitek is just another
re-package of the MS innards. Is it also using the joystick port like
the MS FF wheel? THat would be a reason not to buy, IMO- the Joystick
port just isn't really fast enough, from what I read, to keep up with
feedback required for a sim. I noticed that the MS non-FF wheel did
have a USB connector- maybe it is just a matter of time before the MS
FF wheel has one.

>My T2 is really getting worn out, so I'm thinking of picking up a new,
>Force Feedback wheel. My only options, among the ones we sell at the
>store where I work, are the Saitek and the Logitech (we have the Microsoft
>too but I've seen so many of them break, and they don't have dual-axis
>pedals so I know to avoid it). I'm curious about how they have stood
>the test of time for those who own them. Anyone had problems with them?

>Here are my pluses and minuses as I see them other than the unknown
>longevity factor:

>Saitek's has nicer pedals, but their lack of play makes me wonder if I
>can be as precise with my footwork as I could with the T2 (apart from
>being unable to trailbrake). It has a stickshift, which I like, in
>addition to the paddles. Downside is I'm not so sure how good the
>self-centering is on a unit that requires power to accomplish that.
>It can translate up-and-down forces into the left-and-right axis, which
>may or may not be nice. It has plenty of turning radius.

>Logitech's centers by itself without power, and feels a little sturdier.
>Its pedals downright suck. I don't know if I could get used to using
>them, driving as I do in my socks. The pedal unit looks heavier, though.
>I'm not sure if its pedals have any more play than the Saitek's, as we
>don't have a unit on display and it's been a while since I've touched one.
>It supports I-Force, which a couple older games I occasionally play (like
>SODA Off-Road Racing) require. I don't remember how much turning radius
>it has.

>I presume neither unit requires calibration. I know the Saitek doesn't,
>as we've had one on demo before. I've never felt the Logitech in action,
>so have no idea how its forces compare.

>--

>http://www2.cruzio.com/~keeper/toons.html - Animaniacs, P&TB, F!, etc. files
>http://www.armory.com/~keeper/midi.html - My own MIDI files - Updated 5 Dec.

by **Aubre** » Fri, 01 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Here's a few things I've learned:

1. I've had a Saitek FF for about 2 months. It's pedals suck too, but you
can stick a raquetball under the brake and a foam *** ball under the
accelerator, which makes it pretty nice. The catch is that you will now
have to secure the pedal unit to the floor somehow to keep it from moving.
Maybe you can do this with Logitech's pedals too.

2. Logitech has the best FF effects.

3. Logitech uses pots instead of optical sensors. This is very bad,
especially since the wheel pot is said to be difficult to replace. Saitek
has an optical sensor in the wheel, but pots in the pedals. Microsoft has
an optical sensor in the wheel, but I'm not sure about the pedals. Optical
sensors should last MUCH longer than pots. If the Microsoft wheel has no
pots at all (not likely), I would definitely go with that one.

It's really not an easy choice. Maybe that new Ferrari wheel will turn out
to be the best.

>I'm wondering about the Saitek wheel too. CompUSA, about the only
>place with FF wheels I can get to, has only the MS wheel and the
>Saitek wheel. Seems from the box like the Saitek is just another
>re-package of the MS innards. Is it also using the joystick port like
>the MS FF wheel? THat would be a reason not to buy, IMO- the Joystick
>port just isn't really fast enough, from what I read, to keep up with
>feedback required for a sim. I noticed that the MS non-FF wheel did
>have a USB connector- maybe it is just a matter of time before the MS
>FF wheel has one.

>>My T2 is really getting worn out, so I'm thinking of picking up a new,
>>Force Feedback wheel. My only options, among the ones we sell at the
>>store where I work, are the Saitek and the Logitech (we have the Microsoft
>>too but I've seen so many of them break, and they don't have dual-axis
>>pedals so I know to avoid it). I'm curious about how they have stood
>>the test of time for those who own them. Anyone had problems with them?

>>Here are my pluses and minuses as I see them other than the unknown
>>longevity factor:

>>Saitek's has nicer pedals, but their lack of play makes me wonder if I
>>can be as precise with my footwork as I could with the T2 (apart from
>>being unable to trailbrake). It has a stickshift, which I like, in
>>addition to the paddles. Downside is I'm not so sure how good the
>>self-centering is on a unit that requires power to accomplish that.
>>It can translate up-and-down forces into the left-and-right axis, which
>>may or may not be nice. It has plenty of turning radius.

>>Logitech's centers by itself without power, and feels a little sturdier.
>>Its pedals downright suck. I don't know if I could get used to using
>>them, driving as I do in my socks. The pedal unit looks heavier, though.
>>I'm not sure if its pedals have any more play than the Saitek's, as we
>>don't have a unit on display and it's been a while since I've touched one.
>>It supports I-Force, which a couple older games I occasionally play (like
>>SODA Off-Road Racing) require. I don't remember how much turning radius
>>it has.

>>I presume neither unit requires calibration. I know the Saitek doesn't,
>>as we've had one on demo before. I've never felt the Logitech in action,
>>so have no idea how its forces compare.

>>--

#2159831
>>http://www.racesimcentral.net/~keeper/toons.html - Animaniacs, P&TB, F!, etc.
files
>>http://www.racesimcentral.net/~keeper/midi.html - My own MIDI files - Updated 5
Dec.

by **Antti Markus Pete** » Fri, 01 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Well, you certainly know your wheels. They do have dual-axis.
I hope you're not responsible for selling these things.

---
Antti Markus Peteri

15 miles. your dim light shines from so far away

- Soul Asylum, Promises Broken

by **don hodgdo** » Fri, 01 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Ron, I've had my LWFF since last November with no problems at all. Yes, the
pedals are a bit difficult to get used to, but they aren't nearly as bad as
some people try to make them out to be. You can use your T2 pedals in GPL
with the LWFF wheel either by rewiring the pedals with the wiring harness
from the LWFF or by plugging the T2 pedals into your gameport and the LWFF
into the USB port. There are instructions for this on Alisons site.
http://simracing.com/alison/gpl/

--
don

[|]-(_)-[|]

by **Mark Lepa** » Sat, 02 Oct 1999 04:00:00

I have been using the Logitech for 3 weeks now and I am really happy
with it. I chose it over the others purely on the feel of the wheel
and the fact that it connects to the USB port (WIN 98) or a Serial
Port.

I also 'drive in my socks' and have no problems at all dipping the
pedals.

The Logitech does have a calibration utility but is self centering.

Brgds
--
Mark

"The arrow on a moving target,
the archer must be sure of his aim........"
N. Peart

by **Steve Blankenshi** » Sat, 02 Oct 1999 04:00:00

<snip>

Yes, they do use pots, but also an onboard A/D converter to get rid of any
pot-related jitters. Sort of a mini-PDPI card built-in. I've had my LWF
since they first came out and the pots have given me NO problems at all,
which is a far cry from any of the pot-based controllers I've used before.
As for replacement, it's no big deal as long as you have the right kind of
pot. The steering pot's held in by a simple tab and a dab of silicone (and
some nifty green epoxy putty on mine:-)) and appears to be the same as the
pots in my CH pedals. I agree full-digital would be the ideal and expect
it's on the way from Logitech, but if you need a wheel right NOW, I wouldn't
hesitate on the Logitech because of the pot issue.

Cheers,

Steve B.

by **Gambler** » Sat, 02 Oct 1999 04:00:00

the Saitek uses the joystick port on sound cards but uses no analog
information only digital. Its performance is equal or superior to the
usb ported counterparts. the sensitivity of the pedals are noticeably
better and I shaved a full second off my monza times in GPL after 15 laps
with the same setup I've been using . In N3 after 10 laps at Darlington with
the same setup I ran with the Thrustmaster Pro <my old wheel > I was able
to beat my best time yet again - I also found that adjusting the return to
center
and forced gain settings makes the wheel very tailorable to your driving
needs
regardless of whether you decide to use FF in the game or not - I use the FF
button built into the wheel when I want that "stiff" feel in my hands
without
the FF enabled in the game . I too wondered when I pulled the pedals out of
the box
<they were awful light feeling > but the pedals on the R4 force have
adjustable tensioners
built into the bottom and with a couple of tweaks I was able to get a good
feel
for them and the digital vs analog with the pedals shines through as you can
visibibly
see the difference in acceleration when you take the track .
definately worth every penny you would spend on one and the seperate axis
for brake and pedal is another added bonus , I wont say it's good unless its
really good to me . This is a great wheel !!!
--
David Hudson - "Gambler 1"

Team Peregrine Racing
http://members.xoom.com/_XOOM/Team3dfx/teamperegrine/

Sponsored proudly by 3dfx Interactive Inc www.3dfx.com
& by Saitek International www.saitekusa.com

I have been using the Logitech for 3 weeks now and I am really happy
with it. I chose it over the others purely on the feel of the wheel
and the fact that it connects to the USB port (WIN 98) or a Serial
Port.

I also 'drive in my socks' and have no problems at all dipping the
pedals.

The Logitech does have a calibration utility but is self centering.

Brgds
--
Mark

"The arrow on a moving target,
the archer must be sure of his aim........"
N. Peart

by **Maps** » Sat, 02 Oct 1999 04:00:00

OK, thanks for all the detail- but a couple things I gots to know
before I buy a Saitek wheel- what's this?:

Secondly, I'm all set to buy a Saitek for the simple reason that it is
one of the only 2 available by car to me, and it is pretty cheap now.
(Logitech would be my first choice). But I definitely haven't heard
anywhere else that the joystick port can work as good as the USB. You
might be right, but I need to know why- is there a digital way to send
info through the port that is faster? The issue of latency is key to
me.

Also, the pedals are also digital? They still have Pots tho- right?
(not the optical sensors)

BTW, Thanks for the indepth reply you gave.

>the Saitek uses the joystick port on sound cards but uses no analog
>information only digital. Its performance is equal or superior to the
>usb ported counterparts. the sensitivity of the pedals are noticeably
>better and I shaved a full second off my monza times in GPL after 15 laps
>with the same setup I've been using . In N3 after 10 laps at Darlington with
>the same setup I ran with the Thrustmaster Pro <my old wheel > I was able
>to beat my best time yet again - I also found that adjusting the return to
>center
>and forced gain settings makes the wheel very tailorable to your driving
>needs
>regardless of whether you decide to use FF in the game or not - I use the FF
>button built into the wheel when I want that "stiff" feel in my hands
>without
>the FF enabled in the game . I too wondered when I pulled the pedals out of
>the box
><they were awful light feeling > but the pedals on the R4 force have
>adjustable tensioners
>built into the bottom and with a couple of tweaks I was able to get a good
>feel
>for them and the digital vs analog with the pedals shines through as you can
>visibibly
>see the difference in acceleration when you take the track .
>definately worth every penny you would spend on one and the seperate axis
>for brake and pedal is another added bonus , I wont say it's good unless its
>really good to me . This is a great wheel !!!
>--
>David Hudson - "Gambler 1"

>Team Peregrine Racing
>http://members.xoom.com/_XOOM/Team3dfx/teamperegrine/

>Sponsored proudly by 3dfx Interactive Inc www.3dfx.com
>& by Saitek International www.saitekusa.com

>>My T2 is really getting worn out, so I'm thinking of picking up a new,
>>Force Feedback wheel. My only options, among the ones we sell at the
>>store where I work, are the Saitek and the Logitech (we have the Microsoft
>>too but I've seen so many of them break, and they don't have dual-axis
>>pedals so I know to avoid it). I'm curious about how they have stood
>>the test of time for those who own them. Anyone had problems with them?

>>Here are my pluses and minuses as I see them other than the unknown
>>longevity factor:

>>Saitek's has nicer pedals, but their lack of play makes me wonder if I
>>can be as precise with my footwork as I could with the T2 (apart from
>>being unable to trailbrake). It has a stickshift, which I like, in
>>addition to the paddles. Downside is I'm not so sure how good the
>>self-centering is on a unit that requires power to accomplish that.
>>It can translate up-and-down forces into the left-and-right axis, which
>>may or may not be nice. It has plenty of turning radius.

>>Logitech's centers by itself without power, and feels a little sturdier.
>>Its pedals downright suck. I don't know if I could get used to using
>>them, driving as I do in my socks. The pedal unit looks heavier, though.
>>I'm not sure if its pedals have any more play than the Saitek's, as we
>>don't have a unit on display and it's been a while since I've touched one.
>>It supports I-Force, which a couple older games I occasionally play (like
>>SODA Off-Road Racing) require. I don't remember how much turning radius
>>it has.

>>I presume neither unit requires calibration. I know the Saitek doesn't,
>>as we've had one on demo before. I've never felt the Logitech in action,
>>so have no idea how its forces compare.

>I have been using the Logitech for 3 weeks now and I am really happy
>with it. I chose it over the others purely on the feel of the wheel
>and the fact that it connects to the USB port (WIN 98) or a Serial
>Port.

>I also 'drive in my socks' and have no problems at all dipping the
>pedals.

>The Logitech does have a calibration utility but is self centering.

>Brgds
>--
>Mark

>"The arrow on a moving target,
> the archer must be sure of his aim........"
> N. Peart

by **Tom Witma** » Sat, 02 Oct 1999 04:00:00

>the Saitek uses the joystick port on sound cards but uses no analog
>information only digital. Its performance is equal or superior to the
>usb ported counterparts. the sensitivity of the pedals are noticeably

This guy, absolutely, has to work for Saitek !!!!! No one in their right
mind would recommend Saitek based on the performance of the pedals! I own
one and have tried everything to make them easier to use. Bottom line is
that the stroke is way to small to do any feathering of the brake. Saitek
is totally unresponsive to any of my suggestions. I forwarded them all of
the bad comments about the R4 that have been made on this group, but never
heard anything. The 'bury your head in the sand' syndrome. DON'T BUY
SAITEK

Tom

by J » Tue, 12 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Can confirm that, works absolutely smooth.
For the pedal: I already had problems with the acc. pot. Jittering messed up the
calibration, so I only had 80% effect afterwards. I replaced brake and acc-pots,
now everything is running smooth (I cannot get the pots for replacement here in
Malaysia. BTW, what do they cost in the western world?)

<snip>

Fully agreed.

Jens
---------------------------------------------

Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

by J » Tue, 12 Oct 1999 04:00:00

Tom, didn't you read the signature?

>This guy, absolutely, has to work for Saitek !!!!! No one in their right
>mind would recommend Saitek based on the performance of the pedals! I own

<snip>
---------------------------------------------

Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address

rec.autos.simulators

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