rec.autos.simulators

1: F1RS with it`s innacurate (to some extent) tracks
2: GP2  with it`s "riding the rails" (to some extent) driving model (my
favourite)
3: CPR  with it`s flawed AI
4: CART with what I belive is a traction bug

Not that I care wich is actually the best, as I will probably have them
all in a short time (missing CPR as it`s not released here yet), but I`m
wondering what the rest of you feel is more important in a game that is
trying to simulate a "real" thing.

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

Hi Goy,
Good question!
For me it is the drive model. Which one conveys the feel of speed -traction
and the loss of it- bumps- even sounds I guess influence whether or not I
feel Im driving/ racing. Beers & cheers to you too Goy! Aloha, Mike

--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

To me, driving model is the single most important item for a racing sim.
It has to be believable and respond to the inputs (both wheel/pedals &
setup changes) in a consistent and rational manner. If the driving model
is seriously flawed then nothing else could compensate for it.

After that, it is the atmosphere created by the sim - 'suspension of
disbelief' is the oft used and apt expression. In some ways this doesn't
have to mean utmost realism.

For instance, we've been talking about the (mostly) minor track
inaccuracies in F1RS - well, they are *way* more accurate than GP2's; and
yet GP2 somehow managed (IMHO at least) to convey the right atmosphere
for the tracks. F1RS does as well, but GP2 did it by suggestion whilst
F1RS does it by stunning grahpics. ICR2/CR is a another good example of
this. In the (non-3D) version of Elkhart Lake it does a great job of
giving the impression of driving through a heavily wooded landscape
without actually trying to draw very many CPU-killing trees close to the
track.

Atmosphere also includes items such as the drivers you are racing against
('Driver X' wasn't UbiSoft's fault but it kills the atmosphere -
thankfully Martin Granberg solved that one for us <g>), the paint schemes
of the cars, implementation of the rules of the formula, etc.

Finally we have the AI which for me varies greatly depending on how good
it is. I tend to spend a lot of time hotlapping and developing setups. So
if the AI is so, so it doesn't greatly bother me. But if the AI is very
good (SODA, the CCG NASCAR2 AI projects improvements, GP2 when the CCs
have had their BHP & grip levels increased) then I can really feel that I
am racing against them and it is enjoyable to do so.

And as to which one is 'best'? Well, whatever you currently enjoy the
most of course <g> Just don't expect everyone else to have exactly the
same view ;-)

Cheers,
Richard

Couldn't have said it better myself :-)

Well I would have put in AI here, as I like to race other cars. I don`t
have many opportunities to race humans, this is why I`m so upset about
NROS being for the US only (NROS with the TPTCC patch and converted road
track would be "heaven" for me)

My feelings exactly, when the graphics gets as good as in F1RS, I
immediately start noticing things that are incorrect, but with lower
quality graphics I don`t expect everything to be perfect as long as it
is in the "right neighborhood" because my immagination takes care of the
rest

Yep, I spent the necessary time in GP1 punching in all the right names
and such because it was a series I knew a lot about and it "had" to be
right, but in N2 (or SODA), I don`t care because I only know a few names
anywy

Well I don`t hotlap, but I do practice a lot for things like the TPTCC
and in that sense AI isn`t important, but when I take all that time and
try to convert it into racing, I get really mad when I get punted off by
computer cars (me punting off them is no worry of course :-) when you
know there is a bunch of other guys who have gotten through their races
and are submitting the results when I`m spitting gravel, so to me AI is
maybe THE most important thing

To me, GP2 with a TPTCC patch would be the ultimate offline sim I guess
(Jan,Jed,David N. are you listening ? :-), but I think it`s the
adjustability in Papyrus` sims that makes them good, not the driving
model (which I happen to think is wrong, I don`t get the results from
the setup adjustment that I expect after reading all those books on the
subject) and that is why I chose N2 and TPTCC instead of one of the many
others out there, very good ones I might add

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

After all it isn't like the tracks are as bad a Road & Tracks Grand
Prix or anything. Also lets remember we are discussing small
elevation changes. Changes which really seem to affect only a
small number of people. The basic shape and size of the tracks
are there.

--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Yes Estoril is really alot of fun and when you get a cracking lap it
feels excellent.

But SPA in the fog is my favorite thing in F1 Racing sim....maybe one of
the top three things Ive done in a Sim of any kind.......solo.
Unbelievable.....

PAPA DOC

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On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:46:40 +1100, Bruce Kennewell

Take the current benchmark as your standard, and then add the
improvements you want to make. Et Voila! Accurate tracks aren't an
unattainable Utopia, Psygnosis already managed to do them with their
"Formula One" title. ICR2 models very well the adjustments in camber
and influence on temps, pressures, grip, wear and the like - what is
wrong with looking for other sim manufacturers to do the same?

Cheers!
John

(snip)
Nothing like the exaggerated
level you describe above,
(unsnip)

I don't consider that to be exaggerated in the slightest.
Have there not been examples.....many examples.....of people commenting on
the accuracy or otherwise of both car handling and of circuits?

One instance comes to mind concerning CPR......there was a thread about how
the elevation changes were/were not accurately mapped.  There has also been
comment regarding the elevation accuracy of circuits in GP2 and F1RS.

My point is simply that people....some people....do not accept the fact
that in every $80 simulation there have to be trade-offs, otherwise that
$80 would soon double.  These people seem to forget that the simulations
are not being issued to us as an act of charity: they are being produced by
organisations running to a budget and controlled by accountants and that
these organisations have to make a profit in order to bring us the next
simulation.

They also overlook the fact that whether (for example) the banking on a
particular corner should really be 18 degrees instead of 20 is unimportant
if the whole package is enjoyable.  The 2 degree difference is immaterial
from where we sit.

(snip)
Psygnosis already managed to do them with their
"Formula One" title.
(unsnip)

Fine....and the trade-off was a pathetic AI, non-cockpit driving view and a
product that could hardly be grouped in the same class as GP2 or F1RS. That
this initial release was not accepted by the sim-racing enthusiast is
edvidenced by the fact that they are releasing a v2.  Says a lot for the
accuracy of the tracks when nobody really wants to class it as a
"simulation", doesn't it?

(snip)
what is
wrong with looking for other sim manufacturers to do the same?
(unsnip)

Nothing.....just don't expect it to be done for the same price, that's all.
If....from what we have been privy to so far....GP Legends has everything
that is being proposed, then I will buy this simulation even if the price
doubles, because I too enjoy authenticity just so long as the whole package
offers a worthwhile sim-racing experience.
However, if they haven't mapped Spa to the nth. degree, or don't include a
moving suspension feature, I won't whinge about the innacuracy of the
product.

---
Bruce.

"I envy people who drink. At least they have something to blame everything
on."
(Oscar Levant)

On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:24:59 -0600, "Greg Cisko"

Cheers!
John

Cheers!
John

me too

.. and they went to Jordan, and expected most F1 cars to be reasonably
similar.whereas Ubi went to the undisputed top (Renault) & got it right.

Another thing ... if everyone wants an ULTRA realistic SIM, I'll make it. hee
hee.
The only problem will be that hour or so wait on the grid. It'll be real time,
you can't skip
to the beginning of the race - no no no..., you'll have to sit there and wait
for all the formalities.