rec.autos.simulators

Ok for those who own the ACT Labs Force RS! I have 3 questions.

1) I have heard that the ACT Labs Force RS isn't as smooth as the
Logitech Formula Force when it comes to it's forces. Is this lack of
smoothness very noticable...that is it something I should consider in
choosing between the two wheels? How relevant is this.

2) I have also heard that the Force RS is a little noisy compared to
the Formula Force. Again, is this an annoying feature that should be
considered when purchasing the wheel?

3) Is the pedal on the ACT Labs Force RS better than the pedal on the
Formula Force? That is, does it have more travel, more resistance?

Both wheels cost the same for me (I live in Canada) and I am looking
for a general purpose wheel for racing games like NF3, Formula 1....

So I can go either way, all I need now is some advice from anyone who
owns these wheels.
BTW I'm not too concerned about the crappy paddle shifter on the Force
RS. I am more concerned about the the smoothness and pedals.

Thanks in advance!
Sharad

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When driving, it is not noticeable.

The RS is not even audible compared to sound produced
by whatever sim you are driving.

They have more travel, and more resistance.

Anyway I now have the Logitech. Would more force make it
a better wheel? Heck no. The only problem that racing sims
have is their ability to really make the wheel loose when the
fronts loose grip. F1RS and SCGT are both awesome with
the Logitech wheel. I am sure the ACTLABS wheel is good
too. The selling point for me though was USB. Logitech has
it and it works awesome while the others *WILL* have it.
I don't even want to***around with serial port steering
wheels.

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(Note - I'm not saying the Logitech wheel is like an
LP, while the RS is like a CD - just comparing the
dynamic ranges of the two mediums to show the need
for more force).

GPL solves that problem!  You need to break down
and buy it :)

USB will be nice, but serial is no problem at all.

Ok I guess I can understand that. However force feedback
which rips the wheel from my hands is of no use to me with
a computer game. I believe the Logitech forces are fine. The
software people just need to model more, like bumps in the
tracks... Which both F1RS and SCGT do model to some extent.

I didn;t think you showed that at all.

How exactly does GPL solve that? I have not heard that
the FF patch was released and that it actually worked.

As a consumer you apparently do not want USB and are
OK with serial. Fine. As a consumer I was looking for USB
and Logitech was the only choice. It just happens to be a good
wheel too.

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Question 1: Can't the issue with the Force RS having too much force
sometimes be dealt with my adjusting the force in Immersion's software?
Secondly, if you decrease the amount of force on the Force RS, does the
centering of the wheel also become loose?

Question 2: What's the issue with the ACT Labs Force RS pedals
sticking? First time I heard about this.

Now for some babble....

Well these were my concerns about the Logitech wheel....not enough
travel on the pedals and lack of resistance. But as Greg has said, he
is satisfied with the pedals. If I look at the pictures of the Logitech
pedals compared to the ACT Force RS pedals, the latter seem to have
more travel....but then again, I haven't tried them. Secondly, there
are only 4 buttons on the Logitech wheel compared to the gazzilion that
are on the ACT Force RS wheel. Is this a concern for me? Well so far
I've been playing racing games with my joystick and frankly I haven't
used more than 3 or four anyways so for me 4 may be ok.

Now concerning the strength of forces...from what I have experienced on
my MS Sidewinder Force Feedback Joystick in NFS3...more force feedback
hasn't resulted in greater enjoyment...in fact for myself forces are
there to help me understand what the car is doing realistically and not
having to fight it all the time. I remember I had set the FF volume to
the max last night and it was BRUTAL.  So I guess for myself, more
force may not always be fun. However if the forces on the Force RS can
be adjusted well so that they are smooth but not excessive, then I'm
happy.

Oh another advantage to the Force RS..their upcoming gear shifter add-
on...hmmm looks interesting but will I really use it. Or will the
paddles on the Logitech Wheel suffice? Mabye I'm thinking too deep
about this stuff! :)

As for USB, serial port...serial port should be as fast as USB I guess
so that's not a major concern for me....whatever works properly I'll
take.

Score: I'm still not sure which one to buy! :)

If you don't think my explanation shows the need for
more force, then you don't understand it.

It's not released, but it does actually work.

As a consumer, I would like to have USB, but if performance
is similar I don't care one way or the other.  The TM Force
GT is USB, but doesn't work worth a damn.  You would rather
have that than some other serial wheel that works well?

BTW, sorry I insulted your wheel.

They are too short throw for GPL in my opinion. Another half inch of
travel would do the trick. With the push down pedal arrangement, it's
easy to see Logitechs "Catch 22"... If you give them a proper long
throw, people with small feet are going to have their feet sharply
***ed up (say that carefully) at the ankle.
This would cause soreness in a very short time.

USB was a better choice than me, because I'm using an external modem
and a serial mouse. I have a Saitek X36 stick/throttle for flight
sims, and mixing that with a PS-2 mouse is like gas and fire for some
reason.
I actually have the Saitek disconnected now, but the point I'm making
is when everything IS connected, I have no free serial port.

I'm settled on the feedback strength issue. The new beta drivers let
the Logitech show a little more muscle, and it's got plenty.
I set my FF effects at 120-130%, and they max at 150.

I understand what you're saying about the ACT and its larger range due
to it's max strength, but I don't think its an issue with the Logitech
and the new drivers anymore.

The wheel is able to give more powerful feedback than a *real* modern
era sports car with power steering. I got to make an interesting
comparison.
The weekend I got my wheel, I was e***d to tell my buddy about it.
He shows up with a new Mustang Cobra. Almost 30 big ones, and he
already has a new exhaust and a short throw shifter on it.
I drove the Cobra for about an hour, and don't think I even mentioned
the Logitech wheel to him. =8^/
He's the kind of car friend you love to have... "See if you can get it
to chirp third gear. I noticed the 4.6 isn't anywhere as torquey as
your 5.0 until about 4500 RPM..."

Yes, take it back. Unlike those stupid serial devices, USB devices can
read. My Logitech is furiously flailing about right now. =8^)

Tim

When I had my T2, I waffled and played some stuff in automatic.
Lame I know, but in sims with lots of turns, I hated either trying to
drive with one hand, or nudging the shifter up/back with my forearm
(anyone master that trick? <g>)

Personally, I can't imagine struggling with a gated shifter in a game,
even though I'm pretty adept at driving a real-life manual.
I'm not so great at GPL as it is, but that would probably add 5
seconds to my lap times.

It was a tough call for me too. I actually decided at one time NOT to
buy the Logitech until the pedals were improved. I broke down when I
saw CH pedals could be used in a pinch.
I still can't say I think the Logitech pedals are great, but they're
not as bad as some have made them out to be (true of almost anything).

What swayed me away from the ACT even more than the binding pedals
comments was the look of the wheel. I realize that sounds trite right
now, but bear with me...

As ugly as the red grip is on the Logitech, at least its a correct
Momo copy.
The ACT wheel looks like it was lifted out of a Power Wheels Boyd
Coddington Hot Rod or something.
When I saw it, I couldn't help thinking it was designed by someone who
had no affection for cars or racing (big IMO here, guys!).
I remember thinking to myself "a marketing weasel styled that..." when
I first saw it.

To say that my decision came down to things like esthetics really
tells you how tight the competition is between the two. Tough
decision.

Tim

Let me try to explain what the force setting slider does to
the force you feel on the wheel.  Imagine that the wheel has
a force range of +/- 3 lbs - it can create 3 pounds of force
in either direction.  Now, if you had a simple centering
spring force effect activated, ideally when turning the wheel
you would feel increasing force and reach the 3 pound maximum
when you hit the wheel stop.  This happens on the ACT Labs
wheel with the slider set to about 25%.  Increasing the
slider compresses the spring effect so that you hit the 3
pound maximum at less than a full turn of the wheel.  On
the ACT Labs wheel, you hit the 3 lbs with about a 30-45
degree turn in either direction.

Increasing the max force will reduce this compression
effect.  So, to answer the second part of you question -
yes, if you decrease the amount of force, the centering
of the wheel becomes looser, but that goes for any FF
wheel.

They don't actually stick.  They just have a little too much
friction in the assembly, which makes very small movements
of the wheel hard to do.  You end up overshooting the
amount you wanted to move.

I never had either.  Now on the Force RS, with a 1 inch movement of
both thumbs, I have access to look left, look right, shift up, shift
down, clutch, and raise arm.  Pretty convenient.

The shifter adds realism.  The paddles will suffice if
that's all you want.

Well those folk like yourself have not used the pedals
long enough to form an opinion either IMHO.

No I would rather have the Logitech FF :-)

It isn't simply insulting the wheel that I was replying to. It was
insulting the wheel based on bogus speculation. I have used
the unit for many (dozens) hours and the pedals are fine.

IMHO :-)

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Could you tell me where I can find this registry entry for the force
settings? I wouldn't mind increasing the force on the Logitech wheel if
possible. BTW I already have the 3.20 drivers.

Thanks
Sharad

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