rec.autos.simulators

Goal:  I'd like to upgrade the old box, or buy a new one just for sim
racing.  If I can run GPL and Nascar2003 with all the eye candy, full
fields, and good frame rates, I'd be happy.  I also want to get into RBR
so that will probably raise my hardware requirements.

Need advice:  Can I get away with buying a cheap box with a 2.6 or 2.8
P4 and a good video card?  I'm not concerned with wringing out cutting
edge performance, I just wanna be able to race the above-mentioned sims
well.  Which mobo, which chip (P4, Celeron, AMD), what clock speed, how
much RAM, what video card?  Is the Radeon 9600 still the class of the
field?  What about the 9800 or the 9200?  I saw a machine with Geforce4
built into the mobo, would that be any good?  Can I get away with a slow
basic CD drive?  Will 512mB of RAM be enough, or will a gig be
beneficial?

I have a Logitech Momo FF wheel/pedal (black wheel) setup, and a nice
19" monitor that I'll retain.  I'd like to keep the cost of the new
hardware to about US$500.  Or could I use my wheel on a PS2 and save a
lot of money?

I'm out of touch with the current "good stuff".  Please help an old
racer get back into the***pit again!

...Ron

However, you can't beat the bang-per-buck of console racers.  I wrote an
article for Motor Trend identifying Sony's Gran Turismo 3 as better than
almost every PC simulation, except those from Papyrus, and GT4, out very
soon, promises to be even better (I'm "road-testing" it for Car and Driver
as we speak), plus it's now got multiplayer capabilities.  All the h/w and
s/w you need for under $250 (less if you use yer USB Momo wheel).  You can't
beat that.

--Steve Smith (also a former Papyrus beta tester)

Aren't you the guy that wrote the setup guide for GPL?  That makes you
much more than a beta-tester, IMO!  I was back in the Indycar Racing
days, when I did little more than test early builds on my slow machine
and comment on the look and feel.  I got out of it when they started
getting serious and wanting me to actually fill out bug reports. <g>

Just to be absolutely clear, is my wheel/pedal setup one that will work
on a PS2?  If I can run RBR on a PS2 and I'm not losing anything vs. the
PC version, then I can continue to run the old sims on my old machine.

...Ron

Yeah, I'm that guy, now disgraced for having spoken up for TRUTH, JUSTICE
AND THE AMER...oh, excuse me.

To be sure, console racers aren't yet where PC racers have been for some
time.  The graphics aren't quite as crisp (altho the Xbox can output
peuedo-HDTV to composite in on a hybrid 'puta monitor that looks pretty
amazing), the physics is nowhere near as sophisticated as N2003, the AI is
kinda lame, and the multiplayer is limited, but consoles have fairly
engrossing game play (role-playing in straight racing games, credible
championships in rallying, and complex strategy in street racing titles).
While Gran Turismo rules the PS2, there are a bunch of Xbox games that might
fare a lot better when, as, and if the rumored Logitech Xbox wheel is
released (there's already a Logi wheel specifically developed for GT4).
MS's Forza Motorsports looks promising.

I have used several Logitech and Thrustmaster USB wheel-n-pedal setups on
the PS2, and while not all the buttons function the way they do in PC games
(you'd best leave a PS2 controller connected to the second port for use in
menu screens), the wheel and pedals themselves work as advertised in GT3,
although they were iffy with other PS2 titles (to name a few: NfS, NASCAR
Thunder, F12002, Ferrari Challenge, GP Challenge, Dirt to Daytona, World of
Outlaws, and World Rally Championship - the best rally game since Mobil 1
Rally Championship, IMO).

a lot of old PC games can be bought for pennies on the $.

--Steve

Sounds like I missed a good story, best left in the past.  All I know
for sure is that I studied that guide like a textbook, read it at least
a half dozen times, and referred to it repeatedly.  It enhanced my
enjoyment of the sim, as was intended.  Someday I might even understand
it! ;-)

As it turns out, my wife is encouraging me to upgrade/replace the PC.  
Upon further investigation, we discover that this uncharacteristic
behaviour on the part of my wife is due to the fact that our daughter
needs a new computer. <g>  Ah well, I might as well seize the
opportunity to spend money unchallenged, eh?  I've been pre-approved for
$1000 CDN.

I'm surprised no one else has offered any personal picks for racing on
the cheap.  Guess I'm gonna hafta put in the time and do some more
research.

I can pretty much run all modern games smoothly at 800x600.  Some games I can
play at higher res, but the newest (Doom 3, Far Cry) I start having slowdowns.

Obviously GPL runs perfectly.  I haven't tried RBR yet.  I'd say that my setup
is currently just good enough for almost all current sims.  Thus I'd suggest
you go a few

As you can probably still use your older CD drive.  Most games you just install
on your hard drive, so CD speed just affects install time.  On the other hand,
if you can, I would suggest getting a DVD drive.  Bigger games are slowly
starting to come out on DVD.  

As for memory 512 will probably get you by for now, but buy it as one chip so
you can upgrade if you need it.

So in the end, you don't need the fastest system if you are just going to be
playing racing sims.  If you do get a mid range system, try to leave room for
easy upgrades (it's easier to just by a new processor, than a new processor,
motherboard, and memory).

I've no expertise with current Intel kit, but there is some very good
value for money to be had on the AMD side of the fence, where I've been
for a few years now.

1) AMD Barton (mobile if possible) 2500+
2) Abit NF7-S v2.0
3) 512Mb pc3200 RAM (I prefer 1Gb for the extra elbow room)
4) ATI 9800Pro
5) Possible new power supply (good ones aren't cheap)
6) Some more cooling for the CPU/PC

And some notes to go with that...

1) New Barton chips are multiplier locked, but you can almost always get a
free upgrade by running the CPU at a slightly higher voltage and the
motherboard at 200MHz instead of 166, hence the specification of pc3200
ram, which is rated to run at 200MHz.

If you can get a mobile version of the Barton that's better because (a)
they run cooler at their default speed (lower voltage) and (b) the
multiplier's unlocked. That means plenty of "fun" to be had tweaking the
most out of your cheap CPU. The only possible flaw with that is that the
motherboard BIOS might need updating to recognise the mobile version. The
CPU should still run though even if not correctly identified... it just
means poking around in the BIOS to "force" the right settings.

2) The NF7-S is a mature board with a good reputation. Comes in two
flavours IIRC, one with better onboard sound and, er... something else.
Either way, a cheap but capable board now with onboard sound & LAN.

3) Getting RAM with plenty of flexibility on a particular motherboard
(different makes of RAM and motherboards all have their quirks) can be a
bit of a lottery, even with a lot of research. But at the end of the day
there isn't a *huge* difference between my system running at 250x9 and
166x13.5. The higher motherboard bandwidth is nice to have and some
benchmarks love it. But at the end of the day it's CPU MHz that matters
most. And there's a lot to be said for the reassurance of running things
at the default speeds... in which case you might prefer to blow more money
on a higher spec CPU in the Barton range. Me, I prefer to buy 2 cheap ones
and gamble with one of them :-)

4) The 9800Pro is excellent value for money now IMO. Still not cheap, but
it'll be a while before it starts to show its age (famous last words :-).
The 9600Pro is cheaper if you need to shave some $ off the budget and can
live without the stunning high res, high fsaa performance of the 9800Pro.

Despite initial doubts I didn't regret buying a second hand 9700Pro last
year. In fact I was so impressed that this year I passed that on to
someone else and invested far too much in one of the latest x800s. High
resolution with x4fsaa helps my immersion greatly in sims. It's not
essential, obviously, but it's great to have and I appear to be ***ed
now ;-)

http://www.racesimcentral.net/'t
a bad place to start to familiarise yourself with how all but the latest
generation of vid cards compare.

5) Cards like the 9800Pro eat power (and have an extra power connector)
and can push older, less stable PSUs into instability (random reboots or
crashes, that kind of thing). A good 300w should still be fine, but I
prefer to have something a little more capable that isn't working flat out
all the time in ***.

6) Heat is a big issue these days. My AMD CPUs are cooled with the
relatively quiet and very capable Thermaltake Silent Boost. But these days
there are plenty of good, quiet coolers around... and plenty of really
noisy ones too if you're not careful. The only problem I have with the
Silent Boost is it can be tricky to fit (for me anyway :-)

Vid cards pump out an awful lot of heat as well. So it's important to have
a well ventilated case. I have plenty of extra fans around in my ***
box, but a PCI slot extractor is a cheap & painless way of quietly losing
quite a bit of extra heat from a case. It can soon get a little noisy
though when you add case fans. I solved the problem by turning the old
parts I had into a quiet second PC which is now my main machine for
desktop stuff. Others go for water cooling or wear earplugs ;-)

What else? I think that'll enough to confuse you for now, don't you?

Andrew McP

The price difference between an AMD64 3000+ and a AthlonXP2500+ /w
mobo is just ~$120 tops. No amount of overclocking is going to close
the performance gap between the two.

Andrew McP

A rough estimate would give the AMD64 3000+ a 25-40% advantage
depending on the game. UT2003 gives a 41% advantage for instance:

http://www.materiel.be/cpu/2004cpuv2/page14.php

In french, but numerals are universal. :-)

The cheapest way would almost certainly be to buy a slightly used (ca. 2002)
'puta from a reputable source (e.g., a friend), or shop for parts at a 'puta
flea market.

You might also find a clearance sale on a mid-level 'puta someplace like
tigerdirect.com and upgrade the video card (usually the weak link in
store-bought 'putas).

Yes, strange that more peeps haven't jumped in here with advice.  There's
usually too much of a good thing....

Andrew McP

I found a good-looking deal at TigerDirect for an AthlonXP 3000+ with
512ram, 80g hard drive, CDRW and DVD for $500 CDN.  I can add a Radeon
9800 pro and even with our insane Canadian taxes, I'll still be under
budget.

My only concern is that it has a 280 watt power supply.  Is that going
to cause problems?  Or for that price, should I just get another better
power supply if problems crop up?

...Ron