rec.autos.simulators

I remember seeing a Ford sponsored event where an MPV, Ford Focus and
F1 car were run from a standing start around Silverstone.  Obviously
they gave head starts etc, and the F1 car won (!), but the Focus
actually outpaced the F1 car around some of the v. low speed tight
corners.

It got me thinking about the current breed of WRCs.  Would (say) Colin
Mcrae's Citroen Xsara WRC be a faster car around Monaco (deliberately
picked a more twisty course!) than a 1967 Grand Prix car?  And how
much slower would it be around the course than a current F1 car?  With
4WD and the ability to slide the car with more control, there would be
some advantages to running a WRC as opposed to a F1 car, but I am no
expert and have no clue as to what might be better.

And if you really don't care, don't post!

Matt

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I've seen a Mercedes sponsored video clip with F1 car (McLaren driven
by Coulthard), Mercedes E55 AMG and Mercedes A-class (possibly A190).
Didn't know that Ford had done a similar event...?

Being heavier and having less power, I'd say the Xsara would be
slower. On the other hand, tires have come a long way since -67, and
the 4wd certainly helps getting the power down too.
--
- JKo -

From the web:

To give you an idea of the kind of performance GroupB cars were capable of
I'll mention that in the 1986 season Henri Toivonen made two laps around the
Estoril circuit, during a stage of the Portuguese rally, the fastest of
which, in 1 minute and 18,1 seconds, would have qualified him in the sixth
position of the F1 Grand Prix that same season. Ayrton Senna had the Pole
Position in the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix in 1 minute and 16,7
seconds...Toivonen was using the Lancia Delta S4 and was accompanied by his
usual co-driver Sergio Cresto. Keep in mind, however, that current GroupA
cars are faster yet than GroupB cars used to be. This is mainly due to
technology advances in tire formulations and suspension technology leading
to GroupA cars being faster around corners but losing on straights as
compared to GroupB cars.

And the brakes, and the chassis, and the engine electronics, and....it'd be
interesting though....

"That particular piece of 'information' pops up on rasf1 every
couple of month and I still believe it is absolutely impossible.
Remember, we are talking about the 1.5l turbo engines with >1000 HP
in qualifying trim in 500kg cars, with wide slicks and big wings.

"The Group B cars had less power, more weight, higher COG,
no qualifying slicks, less downforce. There is no way they could
have gotten withing 2.5 sec of Ayrton Senna in a Lotus Renault,
Toivonen or not.

"The only possible source of this confusion I can imagine are the
lap times from the *WET* 1985 Portugese GP - these were about 20
sec down from the qualifying times. That might have been just
within reach for a Group B rally car.

"About the only advantage the Group B car had is AWD - and if you
compare todays FWD F2 rally cars with the AWD Group A on asphalt
that doesn't seem to make much of a difference (compared to say
a few 100 kg of weight difference)."

Martin

  Put Panizzi back in a Pug and let him run rings around Monte Carlo.  Heck
he could spin donuts at the chicane after the tunnel and still be faster
than Mr Coulthard.  :)
If it's pavement it's Panizzi.
dave henrie

But I have definitely seen the Focus v F1 car, maybe not in the same
format.  I think the advantage that the Focus had was the better
turning circle on the slow corners and the way softer suspension had a
positive effect at low speeds.

Maybe it was on BBC's Top Gear rather than the sponsored thing that
was prior to the GP a couple of years ago.

Matt

You are absolutely right. Todays WRC-Cars are too good for the relatively
low power they have.
If those cars would have 450 hp they would go like hell, but I dont want to
see those cars with as sudden electronic-system-fail.

Yes, thats the one from Mercedes, its available online on many sites in
the web. Just try google for example.
The A-class was a A160, A190 wasnt available at that time.

I remember a book released 1996 by Renault, which was available here in
Germany for a while. There was the comparison between Michael Schumacher in
his Benetton Renault B195 against a Renault Clio 16V on Circuit Nevers in
Magny-Cours. This track has the very tight hairpin called Adeleide and in
this corner the Clio was a little bit faster, cant remember the exact
speeds, think it was 50 vs. 55 km/h, because of the limited wheel lock of
the F1 and because of the fact that at those low speeds the aerodynamic
doesnt help. Additionally the Clio is much smaller than an F1.
But you must have corners like that or the hairpins at Monaco to see a
saloon go faster than an F1. In any corner about lets say 55 km/h an F1 is
way faster.

I remember such a clip of ford, too, but cant remember where Ive seen it.

Greetings from Germany
Stephan

The Ford clip is from a Jeremy Clarkson video.

Malc.

True, but it was a good story, wasn't it?  :-)

Probably the best way to get an idea of how they would compare would be to
look at some touring car times on similar tracks.  The BTCC cars are pushing
close to the 300hp of the WRC cars and have about the same weight.  As
others have posted, they are nowhere near the times for F1.

The Porsche Supercup cars get nowhere near the times of the F1 cars at
Monaco, but they don't quite have the power to weight ratio of the WRC cars.

Stephen