rec.autos.simulators

by **Tony Rickar** » Thu, 19 Feb 2004 04:41:13

> > Ok, but why did it have to happen to me? ;-)
> > I was on my way to only my 2nd league win ever, in any sim. My first
came
> > when I was in 2nd place and the leader had to stop and feed his son.

> Daughter!

> ------------------------------------

> Ooops. Sorry Tony, it was quite a while ago. How is the little princess?

She is fine - but not wishing to age us all she is now SEVEN.

I think grids are a bit tighter now to be able to park up, get woken toddler
a drink, upstairs to the wife (she didn't understand!) & toddler, return to
racing and drive back through the field to a podium place!

Mind you I am not sure I could manage 3am race starts any more...so perhaps
I am getting old!

Cheers
Tony

by **Shoc** » Thu, 19 Feb 2004 04:59:13

I shouldn't have said it that way about EA because I used to play some of
their games...NBA Live and Madden NFL. Now I am only interesting in
simulators. And when it comes to simulators, it is a different story. EA's
game ''Nascar Thunder'' is not a simulator it is a game. Papyrus NR2003 is
a simulator. I find it hard to believe that you think Nascar Thunder 2004
is remotely close to NR2003 in simulating the effects that changes have on
the racecar, because it simply isn't and any sim racer would tell you the
same thing. If EA released a simulator that would allow me to make proper
changes to the car I would play it and not care who made it, but I don't see
EA Sports releasing anything more than an arcade style game targeted at
children. And yes that is where the money is and I don't blame EA for
making money and I do think Papy (etc) could have done more to promote their
product. So what this boils down to is that the sim community will not have
an updated version of Nascar Racing by Papyrus, however, Papyrus was smart
enough to allow mod to be installed and used with their product. This
effort will allow us to use updated cars, physics, and will also allow third
party developers to make changes to the game over time. Nice move Papy!

Shock

> So youre going to short change yourself a great sim because of a flawed
> idealogy? That's real smart... Where I live money talks and BS walks, so
> how about blaming Papy/Sierra/Vivendi/whoever else for not investing the
> hard earned money I paid for every single product they EVER released and
> pony up to Nascar as they should have. What the hell has EA to do with
> that?

> I'd imagine there are quite a few guys that will run NR2003 for years just
> like GPLrs still race regularly with much enjoyment. If we never had
> another Nascar sim I'd be right there with ya'll but I want something
better
> than NR2003 and I dont give a flyin f*&k who makes it. Thunder04 is
getting
> close and I hope 05 surpasses that.

> Mitch

> damage model were a top priority in Papyrus for
> > NR2004, but thanks to Nascar signing the deal with the devil (EA) we
will
> > not have the pleasure of using the new sim.

> > Shock

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 19 Feb 2004 05:21:23

There isn't a way to disable random damage. That's the problem. You can turn
the damage down to moderate or off, but that's not the same as having random
damage off.

David G Fisher

by **Tony Rickar** » Thu, 19 Feb 2004 05:46:30

> Being in favor of random damage doesn't make you any more of a serious
> simmer than anyone else.

I agree. Serious online simming takes away the driving against the computer
aspect. We all use the same computer generated animations true, but we are
racing against real people in real time with the computer accurately
plotting where we are in relation to each other so we can race pretty
closely to racing on a track.

Of course the experience is not the same and we would be foolish to think it
is but at least we have an equal footing to "race" each other in a
reasonably realistic way.

Random damage just brings us back to playing against a computerised random
number generator - computers have been pretty good at that for years
(actually computers have been pretty ***at generating real random numbers
but that is not the point!)

Maybe if you simulated a career where you get to afford the best engine
bulders, make decisions on whether to change engines based on practise
telemetry etc. you could factor in mechanical damage unrelated to the race
itself - but that all sounds way too involved for me. Sim racing can be
serious without all that stuff.

Cheers
Tony

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:01:51

That's a ridiculous comment. F1C is every bit the simulator that N2003 is,
and more IMO.

David G Fisher

by **Tony Rickar** » Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:07:39

> So what this boils down to is that the sim community will not have
> an updated version of Nascar Racing by Papyrus, however, Papyrus was smart
> enough to allow mod to be installed and used with their product. This
> effort will allow us to use updated cars, physics, and will also allow
third
> party developers to make changes to the game over time. Nice move Papy!

The EA sims are much more accessible for modders. The Papy mod capability
will not allow further devlopment of a Nascar sim as far as I know.

Whether the underlying EA engine is good enough is another matter.
Personally I don't think it currently is but many respected members on RAS
rate it highly so I guess it is just personal taste.

Cheers
Tony

by **ymenar** » Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:31:50

> That's a ridiculous comment. F1C is every bit the simulator that N2003 is,
> and more IMO.

Sorry but I don't consider a sim any darn game where you have to tweak files
and re-arrange stuff in the back-door to "open up" sim-like features. That
ISI doesn't want to promote such options up-front in the in-game menu simply
means they don't care about such features (ex: high-res physics, etc...).

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Jan Verschuere** » Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:24:16

It's another way of approaching the matter, another way of simulating things
as some aspects of the sim are generated in an artificial manner, rather
than an attempt to "really" calculate what's going on; using a different
means to an end, if you will. But, as single player experience, it can
produce some some darn satisfying racing.

The big let down is the controller setup and the fact you have to manually
edit files to get it to respond right in the FF department. A lot of work,
but worth it, IMO.

Jan.
=---

by **Tony Rickar** » Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:49:58

> The big let down is the controller setup and the fact you have to manually
> edit files to get it to respond right in the FF department. A lot of work,
> but worth it, IMO.

I have never got it to feel right - with or without FF. I gave up on FF in
other sims some while ago.

by **Mitch_** » Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:20:53

I really enjoy the FF in F1C/mods (and NR2003 to a lesser extent). It took
a BUNCH of messing to finally get it right but its about as perfect FF Ive
ever felt in any sim. As I'm driving my 90' 5.0 Stang I often compare how
they feel and it gives a remarkably similar feel. Now I can just copy the
controller section of the player.ini to any new mods and I get the same
feel.

What you guys seem to forget is that ini's have been around a lot longer
than EA games :-)

Mitch

Any Momo force guys want to give my settings a try here is my controller
section of my player.ini

[ Controls ]
Keyboard Steering="0.20189"
Keyboard Throttle="0.49906"
Keyboard Brake="0.49906"
Keyboard Clutch="0.20189"
Force Feedback="0"
Mimic Steering="0" // Mimic AI or pitlane assistance with force feedback
Gear Select Button Hold="0" // Enable this option if using a gear select
device that holds down a joystick button while in a gear and releases all
buttons in neutral (such as the Act-Labs USB Shifter)
Alternate Rearlook Activation="1" // if left look and right look are both
pressed, rearlook becomes activated
VFX-3D Head Tracking="0" // Enable this option if you have a VFX-3D HMD and
you want to enable head tracking (VFX driver v. 2.6 must be installed)
HMD Pitch Exponent="1.00000" // Exponent to apply to pitch tracking. > 1.0
makes tracking near-center slower, > 0 & < 1.0 makes tracking near-center
faster.
HMD Yaw Exponent="1.00000" // Exponent to apply to yaw tracking. > 1.0
makes tracking near-center slower, > 0 & < 1.0 makes tracking near-center
faster.
HMD Roll Exponent="1.00000" // Exponent to apply to roll tracking. > 1.0
makes tracking near-center slower, > 0 & < 1.0 makes tracking near-center
faster.
Options Num Controls="44" // Number of configurable controls displayed in
options
Axis [00, 00] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 1 X
Axis [00, 00] Sensitivity="0.45283"
Axis [00, 00] Center="0.50000" // 0.0=min, 0.5=center, 1.0=max (use to
correct centering or split-axis issues)
Axis [00, 01] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 1 Y
Axis [00, 01] Sensitivity="0.50000"
Axis [00, 01] Center="1.00000"
Axis [00, 02] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 1 Z
Axis [00, 02] Sensitivity="0.50000"
Axis [00, 02] Center="0.50000"
Axis [00, 03] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 1 RX
Axis [00, 03] Sensitivity="0.50000"
Axis [00, 03] Center="0.50000"
Axis [00, 04] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 1 RY
Axis [00, 04] Sensitivity="0.50000"
Axis [00, 04] Center="0.50000"
Axis [00, 05] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 1 RZ
Axis [00, 05] Sensitivity="0.50000"
Axis [00, 05] Center="1.00000"
Axis [00, 06] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 1 S0
Axis [00, 06] Sensitivity="0.50000"
Axis [00, 06] Center="0.50000"
Axis [00, 07] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 1 S1
Axis [00, 07] Sensitivity="0.50000"
Axis [00, 07] Center="0.50000"
Axis [01, 00] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 2 X
Axis [01, 00] Sensitivity="0.45283"
Axis [01, 00] Center="0.50000" // 0.0=min, 0.5=center, 1.0=max (use to
correct centering or split-axis issues)
Axis [01, 01] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 2 Y
Axis [01, 01] Sensitivity="0.50000"
Axis [01, 01] Center="0.50000"
Axis [01, 02] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 2 Z
Axis [01, 02] Sensitivity="0.50000"
Axis [01, 02] Center="1.00000"
Axis [01, 03] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 2 RX
Axis [01, 03] Sensitivity="0.50000"
Axis [01, 03] Center="1.00000"
Axis [01, 04] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 2 RY
Axis [01, 04] Sensitivity="0.50000"
Axis [01, 04] Center="0.50000"
Axis [01, 05] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 2 RZ
Axis [01, 05] Sensitivity="0.50000"
Axis [01, 05] Center="0.50000"
Axis [01, 06] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 2 S0
Axis [01, 06] Sensitivity="0.50000"
Axis [01, 06] Center="0.50000"
Axis [01, 07] Dead Zone="0.00000" // Controller 2 S1
Axis [01, 07] Sensitivity="0.50000"
Axis [01, 07] Center="0.50000"
Control - Accelerate="(1, 4)"
Control - Brake="(1, 12)"
Control - Steer Left="(1, 2)"
Control - Steer Right="(1, 1)"
Control - Shift Up="(1, 14)"
Control - Shift Down="(1, 13)"
Control - Neutral="(0, 89)"
Control - Reverse Gear="(0, 89)"
Control - First Gear="(0, 89)"
Control - Second Gear="(0, 89)"
Control - Third Gear="(0, 89)"
Control - Fourth Gear="(0, 89)"
Control - Fifth Gear="(0, 89)"
Control - Sixth Gear="(0, 89)"
Control - Seventh Gear="(0, 89)"
Control - Clutch In="(0, 16)"
Control - Display Mode="(1, 18)"
Control - Pit Request="(0, 31)"
Control - Pit Menu Up="(0, 200)"
Control - Pit Menu Down="(0, 208)"
Control - Pit Menu Inc="(0, 205)"
Control - Pit Menu Dec="(0, 203)"
Control - TCOverride="(0, 24)"
Control - Launch Control="(0, 57)"
Control - Speed Limiter="(1, 20)"
Control - Bias Forward="(1, 17)"
Control - Bias Rearward="(1, 19)"
Control - Look Left="(1, 15)"
Control - Look Right="(1, 16)"
Control - Rear Look="(1, 35)"
Control - Instant Replay="(0, 19)"
Control - Pause="(0, 25)"
Control - Restart Race="(0, 21)"
Control - Zero HMD="(0, 89)"
Control - Display Vehicle Labels="(0, 15)"
Control - Ignition="(0, 89)"
Control - Starter="(0, 89)"
Control - Horn="(0, 157)"
Control - Headlights="(0, 89)"
Control - Handbrake="(0, 89)"
Control - Look Up="(0, 89)"
Control - Look Down="(0, 89)"
Control - Look Roll Left="(0, 89)"
Control - Look Roll Right="(0, 89)"
FFB Device Type="1" // Type of FFB controller: 0=none 1=wheel,
2=stick/custom, 3=rumble pad.
FFB Effects Level="4" // Number of FFB effects to use: 0=No Effects, 1=Low,
2=Medium, 3=High, 4=Full, 5=Custom.
FFB Gain="1.00000" // Strength of Force Feedback effects. Range 0.0 to 1.0.
FFB Throttle FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Throttle effects on throttle axis,
1 = throttle effects on steering axis.
FFB Brake FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Brake effects on brake axis, 1 = brake
effects on steering axis.
FFB steer vibe freq mult="0.20000" // Controls frequency of steering
vibration. Recommended: 0.5 to 1.0, 0.0 disables steering vibration.
FFB steer vibe zero magnitude="0.03500" // Magnitude of steering vibration
at 0mph (reference point).
FFB steer vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a
function of frequency (used with FFB steer vibe zero magnitude).
FFB steer vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine,
1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB steer force average weight="0.60000" // How much weight is given to new
steering force calculations each frame (0.01 - 1.0). Lower values will
smooth out the steering force, but will also add latency.
FFB steer force exponent="0.80000" // Steering force output "sensitivity".
Range 0.0 to infinity. 0.0 to 1.0 = higher sensitivity, greater than 1.0 =
lower sensitivity.
FFB steer force input max="-11500.00000" // Recommended: 11500 (-11500 if
controller pulls in the wrong direction).
FFB steer force output max="1.80000" // Maximum force output of steering
force, recommendation 0.8 to 2.0
FFB steer force grip weight="0.90000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.4
to 0.9. How much weight is given to tire grip when calculating steering
force.
FFB steer update thresh="0.01500" // Amount of change required to update
steer force/vibe (0.0 - 1.0). Lower values = steering force updated more
frequently = lower frame rate.
FFB steer friction coefficient="0.17500" // Coefficient to use for steering
friction. Range: -1.0 to 1.0
FFB steer friction saturation="1.00000" // Saturation value to use for
steering friction. Range: 0 - 1.0
FFB steer damper coefficient="0.17500" // Coefficient to use for steering
damper. Range: -1.0 to 1.0
FFB steer damper saturation="1.00000" // Saturation value to use for
steering damper. Range: 0 - 1.0
FFB throttle vibe freq mult="0.17000" // Scales actual engine frequency to
force FFB vibration frequency. Suggested range: 0.10 to 0.50
FFB throttle vibe zero magnitude="0.09000" // Magnitude of engine vibration
at 0rpm (reference point).
FFB throttle vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a
function of frequency (used with FFB throttle vibe zero magnitude).
FFB throttle vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine,
1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB throttle vibe update thresh="0.08000" // Amount of change required to
update throttle vibe (0.0 - 1.0)
FFB brake vibe freq mult="0.90000" // Scales actual brake rotational
frequency to force feedback vibration frequency.
FFB brake vibe zero magnitude="0.10000" // Magnitude of brake vibration at
0mph (reference point).
FFB brake vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a
function of frequency (used with FFB brake vibe zero magnitude).
FFB brake vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine,
1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB brake vibe update thresh="0.05000" // Amount of change required to
update brake vibe (0.0 to 1.0)
FFB rumble strip magnitude="0.35000" // How strong the rumble strip rumble
is. Range 0.0 to 1.0, 0.0 disables effect.
FFB rumble strip freq mult="0.60000" // Rumble stip frequency multiplier 1.0
= one rumble per wheel rev.
FFB rumble strip wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine,
1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB rumble strip pull factor="-1.50000" // How strongly wheel pulls
right/left when running over a rumble strip. Suggested range: -1.5 to 1.5.
FFB rumble strip update thresh="0.07500" // Amount of change required to
update rumble strip effect (0.0 - 1.0)
FFB jolt magnitude="1.00000" // How strong jolts from other cars (or walls)
are. Suggested Range: -2.0 to 2.0.
FFB Joy[00] Axis[00] Spring Saturation Pos="1.00000" // DirectInput
Saturation to use for spring
FFB Joy[00] Axis[00] Spring Coefficient Pos="0.00000" // DirectInput
Coefficient to use for spring
FFB Joy[00] Axis[00] Spring Saturation Neg="1.00000" // DirectInput
Saturation to use for spring
FFB Joy[00] Axis[00] Spring Coefficient Neg="0.00000" // DirectInput
Coefficient to use for spring
FFB Joy[00] Axis[01] Spring Saturation Pos="0.00000" // DirectInput
Saturation to use ...

read more »

by JP » Thu, 19 Feb 2004 12:41:23

> > > > Has anyone from Papyrus ever *definitively* explained how the damage
> > model
> > > > works in their games?

> > > > It seems so damn random, and has very little to do with how you
treat
> > the
> > > > car. Also, there's that ridiculous *feature* where the front of the
> car
> > is
> > > > crumpled if the back end hits the wall. Engines being damaged when
> > tapped
> > > in
> > > > the rear. Neat stuff like that.

> > > > We lined up in the pits at the start of our RASCAR race yesterday,
and
> > > when
> > > > I put my car into first (without ever even revving up the engine),
it
> > was
> > > > already lost. How in the hell do you lose first gear before you've
> even
> > > > rolled an inch out of the pits to start the race???

> > > > In F1C, if you hit something with the LF wheel, the LF wheel is
> damaged.
> > > If
> > > > you hit something with the front or back spoiler, the spoiler is
> > damaged.
> > > > Makes sense.

> > > > Far too often, N2003's damage model doesn't seem to make any sense
at
> > all.

> > > > David G Fisher

> > > All the problems with the damage model were a top priority in Papyrus
> for
> > > NR2004, but thanks to Nascar signing the deal with the devil (EA) we
> will
> > > not have the pleasure of using the new sim.

> > > Shock

> > Lol, yeah who'd a thunk they couldn't have got it right in their
> > umptienth version, eh ?

> For a relatively small company they did a very respectable job. It is the
> closest thing we have to a perfect Nascar simulator right now and it will
> continue to be the best for a long time to come.

> Shock

They did an awesome job. But it won't be the best in the future.

- Show quoted text -

by JP » Thu, 19 Feb 2004 12:44:22

> ...
> > It disgusts me that people sit on this newsgroup and argue about
> > realism, and then complain when realistic things occur in a sim.

> Leaving Dave's definition of a 'happiness sim' <g> aside (which I think
> was made in jest), I think people mainly get annoyed by breakdowns they
> don't understand, breakdowns that seem unlogical to them (whether they
> really are unlogical or not is another matter).

> It's not so much the breakdown which annoys them, but the fact that it
> seems like it's a flaw in the game rather than a simulation of reality.

> Achim

Exactly. My complaint is of a lack of realism, not about to much of it.

by **Shoc** » Fri, 20 Feb 2004 02:57:51

> > > > > Has anyone from Papyrus ever *definitively* explained how the
damage
> > > model
> > > > > works in their games?

> > > > > It seems so damn random, and has very little to do with how you
> treat
> > > the
> > > > > car. Also, there's that ridiculous *feature* where the front of
the
> > car
> > > is
> > > > > crumpled if the back end hits the wall. Engines being damaged when
> > > tapped
> > > > in
> > > > > the rear. Neat stuff like that.

> > > > > We lined up in the pits at the start of our RASCAR race yesterday,
> and
> > > > when
> > > > > I put my car into first (without ever even revving up the engine),
> it
> > > was
> > > > > already lost. How in the hell do you lose first gear before you've
> > even
> > > > > rolled an inch out of the pits to start the race???

> > > > > In F1C, if you hit something with the LF wheel, the LF wheel is
> > damaged.
> > > > If
> > > > > you hit something with the front or back spoiler, the spoiler is
> > > damaged.
> > > > > Makes sense.

> > > > > Far too often, N2003's damage model doesn't seem to make any sense
> at
> > > all.

> > > > > David G Fisher

> > > > All the problems with the damage model were a top priority in
Papyrus
> > for
> > > > NR2004, but thanks to Nascar signing the deal with the devil (EA) we
> > will
> > > > not have the pleasure of using the new sim.

> > > > Shock

> > > Lol, yeah who'd a thunk they couldn't have got it right in their
> > > umptienth version, eh ?

> > For a relatively small company they did a very respectable job. It is
the
> > closest thing we have to a perfect Nascar simulator right now and it
will
> > continue to be the best for a long time to come.

> > Shock

> They did an awesome job. But it won't be the best in the future.

I hope a better one comes along, I guess I just don't have much faith in EA.
I hope I am wrong.

Shock

by **Larr** » Fri, 20 Feb 2004 04:32:36

Not taking this miserable past winter season into account, usually my car
gets broken _for_ me on the normal season tracks :)

We've all been bit by the "rear bumper is connected to the #7 cylinder
exhaust valve" feature though :)

-Larry

by **Larr** » Fri, 20 Feb 2004 04:43:28

Well, I'll just have to ring in on this conversation, though my heart tells
me I might regret it :)

I am not Anti-EA. I don't blame them for Nascar's stupidity in giving them
the license after Papy did such a damned fine job for the last, what, 8
years? I have NO doubt it was all about Money and Papy actually had very
little say in what transpired.

For now, NR2003 is the most realistic _simulator_ there is going, and by a
far, far margin has the best online MultiPlayer experience. It's not
without it's faults, but right now it is simply the best overall experience.

Nascar Thunder (including 2004) has not progressed enough for me to consider
it a valid replacement for NR2003.

I don't dislike it because it's EA, or because it's not Papy, I dislike it
because it simply is not good enough to replace NR2003 yet. It really is
that simple.

For one, the online limitations simply must be overcome.

I also do not care for the physics model. Much like F1C, it still feels to
me like the car does not steer, or turn. It rotates on an imaginary 'pin'
that feels like it's located about 2 feet in front of the driver. I have no
idea why I have that feeling, but I do. It does not feel natural to me.

I won't even get into the game's menu screens. It's just a ***y mess all
around.

And the controller code is far, FAR more complicated than it should be. It
takes far too much work to get the best feel possible, and even when you do,
it still feels to me like a slot car, but not a slot car (it's kind of hard
for me to explain) :)

If a day ever arrives where Nascar Thunder 200x is truly better than NR2003,
then I'll be switching to it right along with everyone else.

Not until then...

-Larry

> I shouldn't have said it that way about EA because I used to play some of
> their games...NBA Live and Madden NFL. Now I am only interesting in
> simulators. And when it comes to simulators, it is a different story.
EA's
> game ''Nascar Thunder'' is not a simulator it is a game. Papyrus NR2003
is
> a simulator. I find it hard to believe that you think Nascar Thunder 2004
> is remotely close to NR2003 in simulating the effects that changes have on
> the racecar, because it simply isn't and any sim racer would tell you the
> same thing. If EA released a simulator that would allow me to make proper
> changes to the car I would play it and not care who made it, but I don't
see
> EA Sports releasing anything more than an arcade style game targeted at
> children. And yes that is where the money is and I don't blame EA for
> making money and I do think Papy (etc) could have done more to promote
their
> product. So what this boils down to is that the sim community will not
have
> an updated version of Nascar Racing by Papyrus, however, Papyrus was smart
> enough to allow mod to be installed and used with their product. This
> effort will allow us to use updated cars, physics, and will also allow
third
> party developers to make changes to the game over time. Nice move Papy!

> Shock

> > So youre going to short change yourself a great sim because of a flawed
> > idealogy? That's real smart... Where I live money talks and BS walks,
so
> > how about blaming Papy/Sierra/Vivendi/whoever else for not investing the
> > hard earned money I paid for every single product they EVER released and
> > pony up to Nascar as they should have. What the hell has EA to do with
> > that?

> > I'd imagine there are quite a few guys that will run NR2003 for years
just
> > like GPLrs still race regularly with much enjoyment. If we never had
> > another Nascar sim I'd be right there with ya'll but I want something
> better
> > than NR2003 and I dont give a flyin f*&k who makes it. Thunder04 is
> getting
> > close and I hope 05 surpasses that.

> > Mitch

> > damage model were a top priority in Papyrus for
> > > NR2004, but thanks to Nascar signing the deal with the devil (EA) we
> will
> > > not have the pleasure of using the new sim.

> > > Shock

rec.autos.simulators

N2003's Damage Model

N2003's Damage Model

N2003's Damage Model

N2003's Damage Model

N2003's Damage Model

N2003's Damage Model

N2003's Damage Model

N2003's Damage Model

N2003's Damage Model

N2003's Damage Model

N2003's Damage Model

N2003's Damage Model

N2003's Damage Model

N2003's Damage Model

N2003's Damage Model

N2003's Damage Model