rec.autos.simulators

I'd have to say it's not _all_ about SA.  Rhythm is at least as
important, probably more important.  The point is you need both,
and warped time completely eliminates rhythm.  On the other hand,
low frame rate doesn't eliminate SA, just impaires it.

After some practice, you can _easily_ anticipate when and where your
opponents will slow down.  When frame rate drops, you can still rely
on your timing to hit the right brake point.  Once you hit the brakes,
you know how long it will take you to stop.  When time is always
changing, I cannot hit my brake points with any accuracy.  It's also
nearly impossible for me to guage how hard I need to brake when coming
up behind another in slow-motion mode.  If I'm coming up fast behind a
car, I hit the brakes, then I see my rate of closure on the car
lowering,
I will start easing off of the brake.  Often in GP2, the rate of
closure was lowering only because I was entering slow-motion mode.
BANG!  Crashed out of the race.

In fairness, I guess I spent so much time running ICR1 and N1 at
12-18 fps that coping with short bursts of low frame rate doesn't
cause a problem.  Time warps are a different solution to the
problem and I haven't spent time trying to learn to deal with
it.

Let me ask you this though - how well would GP2 work in multiplayer
network play?  I think this is the reason multiplayer (more than
two) was left out of GP2 and also the reason why modem racing
with GP2 sucks.  From the reports I've heard of GP2 modem play,
the frame rate is horrible.  Is this because it's operating
in real-time?  I think time has to remain constant in racing
sims.  GP3 had better at least have the option of real-time
mode!

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports

Randy

Randy, my point is, it's still not reality. If I crash at 200 mph into a
wall I don't die or wind up in a hospital. You just start the game over.
Someone being good or great at GP2, CPR, or Nascar 2 doesn't mean the same
will happen in real life. It probably won't happen. It just fantasy. I could
drive the hell out of GP2 at the most difficult settings pretending to be
Michael Schumacher, but that's were it would end. I and most others with the
exception of you would probably either die or pee in our pants if we drove a
real F1, Indycar, or Stockcar car at 200+ mph.

Where I agree with you is I can learn about F1 cars, Indycars, and Stock
cars by learning and playing those games. I also get to appreciate in some
sense what the real drivers are subjected to during a race.

Now if someone were to make a "product" where you could drive an actual
track and be subjected to all the external forces a "real driver" is
subjected to; including "G Forces, Vibration and Speed Sensation", then I
would call THAT a SIMULATOR.

--
Bruce.
(At home)

Go to work.

Brian

--
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possible for me to guage how hard I need to brake when coming

Yes I have exactly the same problem, and it's even more annoying when you've
driven half a race, are well in the grove, in the lead with great lap times,
and you come up behind 4 or 5 back markers on a corner and drive into the back
of them in slo-mo. One reason I never had any detail on the mirrors?

N2 and (esp) icr2 had much less of this problem.  Get a rendition card and you
now have a constant 30 fps (occasional slow downs for smoke, but when do you
see this except AFTER you crash).  Frame rate loss is not ideal, but still
better than slo-mo.

It is still fun, but thinking back I think alot of collisions could have been
ascribed to the slo-mo effect.  I would definitely like GP3 to be real time, as
I find this easier for my mind to accommodate.

Brian

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--
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service us. Resistance is futile. Have a nice &*($ing day!

Then it's just a game ! That's the point i've been making. It's fiction,
fantasy, an escape from all the BS we put up with each day. For whatever
time we decide to "play" GP2 we can make believe we are a world class
Formula 1 driver winning races by beating the worlds best drivers. Does it
makes us feel like we accomplished something....you bet!

In the end when we turn off the computer and it's back to the real world.
"It's just a game" folks face it.
There's nothing wrong with that. These games are fun, no doubt about that.

Are military and commercial airline pilots who train in multi-million
dollar _simulators_ playing a game?  Of course not.  They are using a
computer generated reality to improve their skills.  Real-life world
class race car drivers have said explicitly that the same racing sims
we use have helped them perform better in a real race car.  No one
with an ounce of sanity would say that these sims could prepare
someone with no racing experience enough to hop in an F1 car or a WC
car and drive it to the limit.  I would guarantee that someone who has
a lot of sim racing experience is likely to be more prepared to drive
a car to it's limits than someone who has no simulator experience.
I think that is what Randy was saying, and he is right.

Why are you so adamant that there is no difference between a game
and a simulator?

--
Pat Dotson
IMPACT Motorsports

Because it's fiction, if you crash you don't get hurt or die. You are not
induced to the physical aspects of real racing, such as real fatigue,
G-loads, etc. It's phycially demanding to drive the real thing. If you're
good at playing the game it doesn't mean your going to be able to drive the
real thing with the same skill. In fact if you took the best GP2, Nascar2,
or CPR "gamer", put them in the real thing and told them to duplicate what
they just did in the game the following would probably happen:

They probably couldn't start the car and keep it running properly. They
would probably crash the car hurt or kill others and be badly hurt
themselves if not die. They would probably "PEE IN THEIR PANTS" from the
ungodly speeds the pros race at. Not counting Nascar where you drive at
close to 200mph in packs of cars. It even worries some of the pros like
Darrell Waltrip to race like that. Now I love to race that way (in tight)
when playing Nascar2. It makes me appreciate what it's like to drive a race
in that manner. Am I a Darrell Waltrip or a Dale Earnhardt....hell no. When
I finish a race and if I win (with full realism on) I say to myself, man
that was fun, i'm sure glad I don't have to do that for a living.

Now if your making the point that these "games" helps us appreciate or
teaches us what the real pros driving Stock Cars, Formula 1, and Indycars
(CART) have to deal with during a race in order to win. Then yeah it does
that. As I said there is nothing wrong with calling them games. They are
informitive and best of all "they are fun".

Pat nice try it's still a "game".

I'm sorry, I have to disagree.  It ceases to be a game and becomes a
simulator when people go through the effort to implement every little detail
of every track, and implement accurate physics, and accurate AI.  It is no
longer a game.  Some race drivers actually use these simulators to learn the
tracks before they go to them.  Honestly!  And having used the sims myself,
I can see how it could be a big advantage, if programmed right.  So I doubt
these drivers view it as a game, either.

Sorry, real racing is "reality". If you wreck you can cause injury or death
to others as well as yourself. There are actual laws of physics that are
placed on the drivers compounded by "physical and mental fatique". There's
no "PAUSE" button in real racing. Rather than saying real racing is a game,
it would be more appropriate to call it a "Sport".

There's a huge difference between "fiction and real life".

Sims are still games.

Keep that in mind when you flip, and roll the car while your playing and
find yourself in the hospital's ICU on life support.

Villeneuve was reported as using GP2 to *familiarise* himself with Spa.  It is
extremely doubtful that he would have been using the game to improve his overall
performance.  To him, it was the equivalent of a moving road map as seen from
the driver's viewpoint.

There have also been instances of drivers saying that, whilst the game is
enjoyable in its own right, there is no way that any driver would use that
medium to improve his skills.

Can't agree simply because there are no physical effects.  A force-feedback
joystick can and will never replace seat of the pants feedback.

--
Bruce.
(At home)

On Sat, 07 Mar 1998 17:08:32 -0800, "Michael S. Davis"

Cheers.....Ken

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On Mon, 09 Mar 1998 09:56:48 -0500, "Patrick L. Dotson"

Thats on a P166 with a decent video card.

Get real....

Cheers.....Ken

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