rec.autos.simulators

Yeah, maybe Indycar is closer....But you have to ask WHY ? And the
answer is: the regroupings after accidents etc.. !

This is what I call "artificial suspence". I believe that Ron Dennis,
the McLaren teamleader once said: "Indycar is Harlem Globetrotters,
Formula One is NBA" and I totally agree with that.

When a driver is able to gain a second a lap, he'll just DO it in
Formula One, but I'm not so sure it is the right way to go in Indycar.
Indycar is TACTICS, Formula One is drivingskill: the ability to drive
on the REAL limit for two hours, without crossing the border. Now
THAT'S a challenge....

But if you like Indycar, I don't care, really...Each his own !
=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~
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Hi Craig!

               **********************
Then your no real racing fan!

remember Indy have those yellow "I get a cheesburger" flags.  But I like IndyCar
too.
BTW: Are there really 2 series next year????

Tschuess,
                Lutz

: Come off it, you make Papyrus seem like a bunch of hacks, at the moment
: they still have the best racing simulation in IndyCar Racing, even
: Crammond acknowledges this in an interview he did with Pc zone, having
: said that though apparently the new game engine will do 30fps in SVGA
: mode and 50fps in VGA. So all us Pc owners with relatively humble
: machines should be able to play it as well.

   That's why Papyrus is a company that makes racing simulators and
MicroProse is a company that makes racing arcade games.
There is no way in hell MP will EVER make a better racing sim than Papyrus.

Dave.

: Hang on, F1gp only supporting 15fps? I think not. The game can support up
: to 25 internally or using an editor can go all the way up to 300. And you
: can run 50fps with a 486DX-50, can Nascar? or Indycar?

 What the hell do you wanna see 300 fps for? Your freakin' eyes can only
support 30fps (if they're in good condition).

 > >Hi!
 > >
 > >What did you think of the "cockpit shots" on Microprose's GP2 web page?!
 > >
 > >WHERE HAVE THE FRONT WHEELS GONE?!?! HEY, TUNNEL VISION!!!
 > >
 > >It looks like they've done it AGAIN! The original F1GP omitted this
 > >crucial aspect, and apart from the improved gfx, it's the same story!
 > >Even the now mouldy 'StuntCar Racer' had visible front wheels!
 > >Come on Geoff!
 > >
 > >
 > >And Papyrus got it right YET AGAIN by having your front wheels visible!
 > >I mean, they ARE BIG ENOUGH!!! How do you expect us to judge distances
 > >when we can't even SEE where our front wheels are?!?! It's bad enough
 > >trying to judge where the car you're overtaking is, but to limit our view
 > >to this TUNNEL VISION is crazy! It looks pretty bad on my BIG monitor -
 > >all that space wasted on a HUGE***pit when we should be concentrating
 > >on what's going on around us!!!
 > >
 >
 > You do NOT want to see the front wheels. Seeing the front wheels ruins
 > the perspective and is why the track when viewed from the***pit looks
 > so much better in F1GP than indycar. While you can see the wheels when
 > sitting in a F1***pit, they are well into your peripheral vision, say
 > 45 degrees. Therefore, if you put them on the computer screen, it ruins
 > the perspective of the wheels in relation to the track and makes the
 > display look unrealistic. And in terms of your complaint that you need to
 > see the wheels to judge distances, this is completely untrue. You judge
 > where the car is by where the***pit is in relation to the track. How
 > often do you see the F1 drivers looking out of the side of the***pit
 > so that they can line the wheels up with the apex? How often do you need
 > to look at the side of your car when driving along the highway to make
 > sure that it is lined up with the median strip?? You do all of this by
 > looking straight ahead (or, more precisely, where your vehicle is going).
 > Similarly, I can place the car where I want it just as precisely,
 > probably even more so, in F1GP than indycar, despite the lack of wheels
 > in the former. You may be surprised to hear this, but Geoff Crammond does
 > actually know what he is doing.

For sure, but you've missed my point bigtime, m8. In "normal" situations,
of course, peripheral vision is all you need when lapping a course,
looking straight ahead at a point in the distance, both in time and
physically, is the norm. All you are doing is sticking to the racing line.

BUT, in the heat of a race, with constant positional changes and, dare
I say it, WHEEL TO WHEEL racing, I would like to know, or at least have
SOME idea of where the car I am overtaking IS in relation to my wheels.
Do you think that RACING is akin to "driving down the highway", as you
put it?! :-) For sure, it's FINE if you're all on your OWN out there,
but when there's 24 other guys stacked wheel to wheel on a dirty
racetrack, well, things are "a little" different, I assure you!
And if you can't even SEE your wheels...

How many times when overtaking and attempting to out brake the opposition
have you had to GUESS where the car is ALONGSIDE you in F1GP? All I am
saying, is that it would be NICE to have a wider field of view for
overtaking maneuvers when you NEED it. The way I race, cutting through
traffic, I need it alot!

Without at least having the outside point of your wheels in view, you
will never be ABSOLUTELY SURE how close your wheels are in relation to
your opponent in tight situations. You WILL NOT KNOW if the car you are
overtaking suddenly swerves in your direction when alongside, if your field
of view isn't wide enough, will you? If YOU are happy with this, then while
I could simply jink out of the way, and match my distance gap with my
opponent, by the time YOU know what has happened, you will either be
spinning in the air or have a wheel missing. In racing, I drive on the limit.
I drive "wheel to wheel". I don't like leaving it to chance and guesswork.
Driving the real thing IS easier than a sim with these extra limitations.
Without the feedback, you may as well have as many visual cues as possible!

And who says I or F1 drivers have to turn the head at all??? With normal
eyesight, obviously a wider view than a monitor, there is MORE than enough
peripheral vision to see to the side of me without even moving my EYES!
I don't have to turn my HEAD to know whats going on around me! I have
GREAT peripheral vision and spacial awareness! But HOW do you expect to at
least TRY to SIMULATE that on a SCREEN which isn't ALLOWING for that
"VIRTUAL" peripheral vision? Don't you see?! I'm not saying I even have to
take my eyes off the CENTER of the screen at all, but the area around the EDGE
of the screen should attempt to SIMULATE YOUR PERIPHERAL VISION! With F1GP,
your natural peripheral vision is REMOVED! You might have a more realistic
view of what is _IN FRONT_ of you, but as far as what is going on _AROUND_ you
in the "game world" is concerned...

I've got "some" idea what I'm talking about too. I've won a few karting
trophies. While looking ahead most of the time, you have to be damn aware
of who is racing half an inch away from you! :-) Surely everyone agrees?

BTW, I've always preferred F1GP to IndyCar, For sure, even without the wider
view. The "gameplay" in ICR for me sucks. I mean, it's hardly realistic when
the cars "do the dalek" from side to side, even in NASCAR they do this! :-)
You get a much better "race" in F1GP I think. But for pure racing fun, it
has got to be NASCAR! "And I was enjoying it as well..."(N. Mansell)
Geoff Crammond is one of my programming heroes too. Don't let us down!
Even if the wheels are out, I'll love it just the same!

Hey, maybe if you can control the "virtual" camera, you can position an
"outside" view _inside_ the helmet of your driver (helmet-cam (oo-err)),
and _drive_ like that! Yes! Of course!

NB: The CAPS in this post aren't meant to be shouting, it's just me
emphasizing the words in a joking and friendly way, comic book style.
(BOLD text).

Cheers,
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 > >Hi!
 > >
 > >What did you think of the "cockpit shots" on Microprose's GP2 web page?!
 > >
 > >WHERE HAVE THE FRONT WHEELS GONE?!?! HEY, TUNNEL VISION!!!
 > >
 > >It looks like they've done it AGAIN! The original F1GP omitted this
 > >crucial aspect, and apart from the improved gfx, it's the same story!
 > >Even the now mouldy 'StuntCar Racer' had visible front wheels!
 > >Come on Geoff!
 > >
 > >Not only that, but there's now a STEERING WHEEL in your***pit... I like
 > >the 'MOMO' touch guys, but if this is animated, it's going to look pretty
 > >stoopid when using our Thrusty Formula T1 wheels - TWO WHEELS?!?! Papyrus
 > >got it right by NOT having an animated steering wheel, as they were
 > >intelligent enough to realize that most true sim fans are going to be
 > >USING A WHEEL CONTROLLER combo.
 > >
 > It is obvious that two distinct camps are forming here...those for
 > IndyCar and those for F1GP.   You really cannot compare the originals
 > as they were of different times.   F1GP was the best sim when it came
 > out and IndyCar 'pushed the envelope'.   NASCAR Racing pushed it
 > further and it only remains to be seen what improvements have been
 > made.

For sure! But I was talking about F1GP_2_, not the old original.
But, buying F1GP on the day it came out in the shops (Amiga version!),
and still now driving it on the PC, it's got to go down as a classic of
classics. NASCAR could/should have been great, but the GFX are WAY
too jerky and slow (SVGA) to be truly playable for me. And I use a 16Mb
P90. Still, once a decent 3D accel' card comes out...

 > Different teams obviously have different solutions or views of how
 > their sims should be.   That is fine and diversity is welcomed.

Too right.

 > HOWEVER, having just finished watching the Adelaide Grand Prix I hope
 > that F1GP2 is not too realistic.   F1 is BORING!!!   I turned the
 > telecast off before halfway to watch an old tape of the 1995 Indycar
 > Michigan 500 where the margin was 1/2 a car length after 500 miles
 > instead of 2 laps with the second car smoking like a chimney.   At the
 > start of each GP the commentator (ours is Murray Walker) says that Spa

Heh, good old Murray. Have you seen the "quotes" web page at:

 http://www.racesimcentral.net/:6666/pete/walkerisms.html

It's worth a visit for a few laughs. Wouldn't be the same without him.

I sure hope F1 improves with "closer" racing, like you say. If there
has been any chance of it this year, you can be sure that ONE of the cars
will "blow" before the chequered (Alesi). I just want to see Berger win
again. I want to see wheel-to-wheel racing!

(I want to see my WHEELS In F1GP2 so I can do exactly that!)

 > Like everyone else on this newsgroup I can hardly wait for the release
 > of either sim.   I can live with their differences and I am sure they
 > both will be worth the wait.

Too right. Not as if we're going to snub it now, WHATEVER it turns out
to be, eh? Not now. And if Geoff's in charge, it's sure to be another
classic.

I like the sound of MANAGING a team to the top of the championship with
the add-on/management sim too. Sounds interesting, and looks a damn sight
better than that "Formula One" game!

To be honest, I was really moaning to try and get though to Microprose to
get their act together. They just seem to have gone downhill lately with
their other, unrelated releases and I'm desperately hoping that any bad,
bureaucratic mis-management in the house hasn't affected Geoff's team!

Have a good one,

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--

: : Now, a suggestion to Papyrus guys. I tryed to play Nascar Racing with the
: : keyboard. The key combinations you can use in Nascar aren't very good. They
: : can't be compared to the only key combination of F1GP.( a-z accelerate/brake
: : , . steer left/right, ALT - SPACE shift down/up). It is also very difficult to

: You should check the Nascar manual.  There is an option to configure ALL the
: controls in the game, including the keyboard.  Select option/controls/set
: controls. From there you can change the key board steering and
: acceletation/brake controls to what ever your heart desires; you can even
: emulated that other game's key combination if that'll make ya happy. :)

I know that menu, but the program ignores me when I press 'A'. It seems
to accept only a few keys (number pad, controls, shifts, alts and the
keys between the alphanumeric keyboard and the number pad). And it
doesn't accept the space bar! (the key I use to  shift up gears)
Well, perhaps I'm doing something wrong. I'll check it again.
Thanks.

Paolo

You are right F1 is driving skill, as well as all racing, Indycar and
Nascar.  But F1 is also a game of who has the most money wins!  In
Nascar all teams have pretty much the same amount of money which means
more drivers winning and closer competition, something you just dont
find in F1 right now.  Only a few teams in F1 have the big bucks and
they are winning the rest have no money compared to the others and
they are the losers.

Enjoy all racing!

two lines followed by a H U G E .sig.

[munch, chew, swallow]

For crying out loud. Are you a 1st year student or something?

Stuart.
--
From the bedroom of Stuart Booth,  
Somewhere in Guildford, England...  

Stupid 'features' like this are typical of one man projects... I've
noticed this in my own work several times... you just can't view your
own work with a critical enough eye... you need lots of feedback and
teamwork to produce something truly superior ---> though Crammond
probably needs less of it than others, he still needs it...

Again, see my comment above... Papyrus rocks (not that they are perfect ---
fixing bugs typically takes forever where Teamwork is concerned --- yes, I'm
talking about A.I.)

Tommi Pajari

Artificial suspense works better for me than the "real" thing ---> F1GP's
are boring to watch (there naturally are exceptions)

Another thing why I despise F1: cheating. For example, Schumacher drank 10
liters of water or something so he weighed more so they were allowed to build
a lighter car.. now that is despicable... I'm not sure if something like
that has happened in Indycar's, but at least I haven't heard of such...
I don't call it racing when before a race, you call your lawyers to ask
if you can use dirty trick A or mebbe you should stick to trick B?

At least in this case, I think the Americans have got it right ---> both
Indycar and Nascar represent honest, hard, competitive racing where
your skill and cunning and the commitment that you put into your setups/
pit strategy wins races, not money put into lawyers pockets or different
engines for qualifying & race (which only the most wealthy racers can afford
--- unfair advantage? --- artificial adavantage?)

I think you could say: 'When a driver is able to afford a second a lap..'

Again, I would like to correct: Indycar is TACTICS and SKILL, Formula is
SKILL and MONEY.

Yes I do like it... Formula isn't _entirely_ bad either, but I vastly prefer
Indycar & Nascar, both as simulations and in RL (tm)

Tommi Pajari

I agree on the money-part, but I still don't see the use of pacecars
etc..
It is and remains artificial.

=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~
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"Tiger run around the tree......"
=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~=~^\/^~

: Hey, maybe if you can control the "virtual" camera, you can position an
: "outside" view _inside_ the helmet of your driver (helmet-cam (oo-err)),
: and _drive_ like that! Yes! Of course!

In F1GP you can't see the revs gauge if you use the external vision. I think
that if I had it I'd prefer driving in that way to have a wider vision field.
I hope you can have a couple of indicators (revs and hopefully fuel)
in the external vision in F1GP2. Otherwise it is here only for replays.
I think that the missing of peripheral vision and wheels is a
major failure in a simulation game. In all the flight similuators
programs I tried you could always look around you by switching view.
This could be too much for a racing game but it would be great if you
could have three overlapping views like this:

      a
      |    b
      |  /
      | /
      |/
car -->
      |\
      | \
      |  \ c
      |  
      d

View 1: from a to c, View 2: from b to d, View 3 (wider) from b to c
Obviously you need some way to switch from one view to another in a snap
without leaving the controls (a sensor on the neck? :-)
An alternative would be implementing some sort of full-screen fish-eye view
like what you have in NASCAR mirrors. I don't even want to think about
using three monitors to get a wider vision :-)

Anyway, someone should implement a good peripheral vision system sooner or
later. If it's the realism what sells race games, well this is realism.

Paolo

: : Hey, maybe if you can control the "virtual" camera, you can position an
: : "outside" view _inside_ the helmet of your driver (helmet-cam (oo-err)),
: : and _drive_ like that! Yes! Of course!

: In F1GP you can't see the revs gauge if you use the external vision. I think
: that if I had it I'd prefer driving in that way to have a wider vision field.
: I hope you can have a couple of indicators (revs and hopefully fuel)
: in the external vision in F1GP2. Otherwise it is here only for replays.
[snip re. peripheral vision]

Surely you don't drive looking at the rev limiter?   You need to be
able to drive and change gear by listening to the revs, then your
problem is solved!  :-)

On the subject of peripheral vision, there is a great deal to be said
for a developing a system such that we can gain a better feel for
the surrounding drivers' actions earlier...

Thomas

-  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -  -

91 Thief Lane
YORK
YO1 3HT, UK                   "God preserve us from religious nutters"

Here here.
It's good to see that at least one person in this newsgroup can put together
a well structured and INTERESTING posting on GP2.
On the subject of GP2 in general, I've kept quiet since posting my
preview/observations on the ECTS demo of GP2 that I played. However, I think
I should mention that the most e***ment around the pending release of a
new game is in the waiting (eg. Christmas when you were small).

I must admit I would like lot's of little (, some big ,) "features" in a GP
Sim, but the main thing about GP2 is that it's already (, according to the
magizine reviews and my preview of the demo,) a big step up from GP1 (widely
regarded as the best racing sim ... allegedly ;-) ) and O.K., it's been a
long time coming, but how many of you have really got 100% bored of playing
GP1 ? Not many I shouldn't think.

So please, let's just keep quite about the release date and wait until
someone has actually bought it, rushed home, played it a bit and then posted
their joyful news here.

--
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