rec.autos.simulators

by **Fraser Mun** » Thu, 09 Nov 1995 04:00:00

It's nice to see the return to sound, well thought out opinions!
Judging a game by whether you can see the front wheels out of the
***pit is a bit like judging a book by it's cover. As for the
idea that Papyrus could produce a better F1 game.. please, give
us a break. Geoff Crammond is a F1 nut and as such is going to
produce a very realistic, playable game. If Papyrus produced a
F1 game, it would look like IndyCar racing with a new paint job,
tempremental A.I. and no curbs. If we were really lucky, it might
run at 20 fps in SVGA on a P133 and contain more bugs than you could
shake a stick at.

Fraser

by **Gertjan Westene** » Thu, 09 Nov 1995 04:00:00

I agree.
I think if Papyrus made a Grand PRix style version of Indycar, I would love
it. It would run easily on a 486DX2-66 and I'm not sure F1GP will do that.
So please Papy, make us a F1GP!

Gertjan

by **COX J.** » Thu, 09 Nov 1995 04:00:00

>Subject: Re: F1GP2 inside view - YUK! MPS and Papyrus please read!
>Date: 8 Nov 1995 14:57:27 GMT

>>Hi!

>>What did you think of the "cockpit shots" on Microprose's GP2 web page?!

>>WHERE HAVE THE FRONT WHEELS GONE?!?! HEY, TUNNEL VISION!!!

>>It looks like they've done it AGAIN! The original F1GP omitted this
>>crucial aspect, and apart from the improved gfx, it's the same story!
>>Even the now mouldy 'StuntCar Racer' had visible front wheels!
>>Come on Geoff!

>>Not only that, but there's now a STEERING WHEEL in your***pit... I like
>>the 'MOMO' touch guys, but if this is animated, it's going to look pretty
>>stoopid when using our Thrusty Formula T1 wheels - TWO WHEELS?!?! Papyrus
>>got it right by NOT having an animated steering wheel, as they were
>>intelligent enough to realize that most true sim fans are going to be
>>USING A WHEEL CONTROLLER combo.

>>And Papyrus got it right YET AGAIN by having your front wheels visible!
>>I mean, they ARE BIG ENOUGH!!! How do you expect us to judge distances
>>when we can't even SEE where our front wheels are?!?! It's bad enough
>>trying to judge where the car you're overtaking is, but to limit our view
>>to this TUNNEL VISION is crazy! It looks pretty bad on my BIG monitor -
>>all that space wasted on a HUGE***pit when we should be concentrating
>>on what's going on around us!!!

>>Microprose, you've taken away the front wheels and stuck on a steering
>>wheel that nobody wants! Get real!!! And NO VIRTUAL***PIT???

>>As if these***pit shots weren't bad enough, they finish up on the web
>>page by saying "Joystick Recommended". Er, haven't they heard of
>>Thrustmaster? Are they implying we chuck our steering wheels away or isn't
>>it Thrusty T1 compatible?!?!

>>Roll on IndyCar 2, eh? :-)

>>For the heroes at Papyrus: WHEN are you going to write a Formula One sim?
>>You are the only guys left who can do it! Don't tell me "because F1 isn't
>>as popular as IndyCar"... You realize that even WITH it's faults that
>>F1GP2 will EASILY outsell Indy 2. It's going to be at the top of the
>>charts for a LONG time. PLEASE do it - do it as a Senna tribute! Anything,
>>just do it. But it will have to be good... ;-)

If you don't like GP2, don't buy it and back off please.
Thank you.

If you love the guys at Papyrus, go send them a card on Valentine's Day.
Thank you again.

by **MASHOOD KHA** » Fri, 10 Nov 1995 04:00:00

> >Hi!

> >What did you think of the "cockpit shots" on Microprose's GP2 web page?!

> >WHERE HAVE THE FRONT WHEELS GONE?!?! HEY, TUNNEL VISION!!!

> >etc.. etc..

> It's nice to see the return to sound, well thought out opinions!
> Judging a game by whether you can see the front wheels out of the
>***pit is a bit like judging a book by it's cover. As for the
> idea that Papyrus could produce a better F1 game.. please, give
> us a break. Geoff Crammond is a F1 nut and as such is going to
> produce a very realistic, playable game. If Papyrus produced a
> F1 game, it would look like IndyCar racing with a new paint job,
> tempremental A.I. and no curbs. If we were really lucky, it might
> run at 20 fps in SVGA on a P133 and contain more bugs than you could
> shake a stick at.

> Fraser

>Come off it, you make Papyrus seem like a bunch of hacks, at the moment

they still have the best racing simulation in IndyCar Racing, even
Crammond acknowledges this in an interview he did with Pc zone, having
said that though apparently the new game engine will do 30fps in SVGA
mode and 50fps in VGA. So all us Pc owners with relatively humble
machines should be able to play it as well.

In anticipation

Mash

by **Ville Kop** » Fri, 10 Nov 1995 04:00:00

>>Hi!

>>What did you think of the "cockpit shots" on Microprose's GP2 web page?!

>>WHERE HAVE THE FRONT WHEELS GONE?!?! HEY, TUNNEL VISION!!!

>>etc.. etc..

>It's nice to see the return to sound, well thought out opinions!
>Judging a game by whether you can see the front wheels out of the
>cockpit is a bit like judging a book by it's cover. As for the
>idea that Papyrus could produce a better F1 game.. please, give
>us a break. Geoff Crammond is a F1 nut and as such is going to
>produce a very realistic, playable game. If Papyrus produced a
>F1 game, it would look like IndyCar racing with a new paint job,
>tempremental A.I. and no curbs. If we were really lucky, it might
>run at 20 fps in SVGA on a P133 and contain more bugs than you could
>shake a stick at.

>Fraser

I totally agree with you. F1GP is much better than Indycar racing and its incredibly difficult
for Geoff to maintain the level of quality from F1GP. Thats prorably why F1GP 2 is so late
anyway.

.. and I thought the front wheels in Indycar looker stupid.
--

- Second place is first of the losers.(Ron Dennis) -

by **Terje Wold Johans** » Fri, 10 Nov 1995 04:00:00

> >Hi!

> >What did you think of the "cockpit shots" on Microprose's GP2 web page?!

> >WHERE HAVE THE FRONT WHEELS GONE?!?! HEY, TUNNEL VISION!!!

> >It looks like they've done it AGAIN! The original F1GP omitted this
> >crucial aspect, and apart from the improved gfx, it's the same story!
> >Even the now mouldy 'StuntCar Racer' had visible front wheels!
> >Come on Geoff!
[skip]
> >For the heroes at Papyrus: WHEN are you going to write a Formula One sim?
> >You are the only guys left who can do it! Don't tell me "because F1 isn't
> >as popular as IndyCar"... You realize that even WITH it's faults that
> >F1GP2 will EASILY outsell Indy 2. It's going to be at the top of the
> >charts for a LONG time. PLEASE do it - do it as a Senna tribute! Anything,
> >just do it. But it will have to be good... ;-)

> I agree.
> I think if Papyrus made a Grand PRix style version of Indycar, I would love
> it. It would run easily on a 486DX2-66 and I'm not sure F1GP will do that.
> So please Papy, make us a F1GP!

I think Geoff and his crew will make a very hefty F1 game with GP 2.
Nevertheless, the animated steering is a joke, it reminds me of Test
Drive and it shouldn't be a part of the***pit at all.
Two steering wheels, ehh? Joystick recommended...

Not seeing the wheels is something you get used to but it is more
accurate to see the wheels like you do in ICR.
Not seeing the front wheels is excusable, but having an animated
steering wheel is not.

But as I understand, Geoff, is not willing to make GP 2 like ICR
with all the garage options, etc, since he subscribes to the idea
that a game shouldn't demand the driver to tinker with setups, etc.
That's one of the reasons GP 2 will still be a little gameish as
compared to ICR and ICR II. Anyway, I'll bet GP 2 will be great fun.

In F1GP you just have to learn the tracks, in ICR that's only the
beginning. I hope GP 2 will change that but according to Geoff
that's exactly the strength of his F1 game.

-- Terje Wold Johansen "I am your inferior superior." Speaking --

-- Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway myself! --

by **John Portwi** » Sat, 11 Nov 1995 04:00:00

Hang on, F1gp only supporting 15fps? I think not. The game can support up
to 25 internally or using an editor can go all the way up to 300. And you
can run 50fps with a 486DX-50, can Nascar? or Indycar?

John.
--
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by **Paolo Montras** » Sat, 11 Nov 1995 04:00:00

Front wheels in Indicar could look stupid, but this doesn't mean
the ARE stupid. In F1GP it is very annoying not being able to understand when
you are going to hit a curb. Have you ever seen the white line delimiting
the track dizzling away just on the border of the***pit? Well I get
the impression of driving with two wheels on the grass. That's not
realistic.

Anyway, real drivers can see their wheels, so why shouldn't I? (if this
is a simulation....). It is also really annoying not being able to see
cars you are trying to overtake (or viceversa) when they are at your side.
I can't remember how many collisions I made with those invisible cars when
we were proceeding at the same speed and I just steered a little bit and hit
the damned car.
I'd like to be able to turn my head (30 degrees will suffice) and look
around. Again, you can do it on a real car.

I know it too late for F1GP2, but perhaps someone will put
wheels on cars and a neck unders drivers' heads in some future program :-)

Now, a suggestion to Papyrus guys. I tryed to play Nascar Racing with the
keyboard. The key combinations you can use in Nascar aren't very good. They
can't be compared to the only key combination of F1GP.( a-z accelerate/brake
, . steer left/right, ALT - SPACE shift down/up). It is also very difficult to
keep the car on the track. Perhaps the problem is that the standard setup
is really poor and I try to drive a Nascar car like a F1 car. However I
suspect that the steering help in F1GP makes the difference. If this is
the case, Papyrus should implement something like that. It's no point
making the game too difficult to play with the keyboard: are they trying
to sell joysticks? :-) Furthermore, it seems to me that the visibility
of F1GP tracks is better than Nascar ones (despite the textures).
I'm talking about VGA mode, obviously.

Cheers

Paolo Montrasio

by **Ron Bir** » Sun, 12 Nov 1995 04:00:00

F1GP RULES!!!! F1GP is better even though it's a
year behind the technology of indycar.

by **khu..** » Sun, 12 Nov 1995 04:00:00

>> They've done a good job with the look of the car from inside the***pit,
>> and the handling feel is there. The AI admittedly needs work, but, the
>> AI in NASCAR is much better. The 20 fps is still faster than what F1gp
>> could support (15) and NASCAR can theoretically support 30 fps. My
>> biggest beef is that it takes a Pentium to hit that number but that is

>Hang on, F1gp only supporting 15fps? I think not. The game can support up
>to 25 internally or using an editor can go all the way up to 300. And you
>can run 50fps with a 486DX-50, can Nascar? or Indycar?

The graphics in IndyCar and Nascar are more complex then in F1GP.
Not a good comparison. It's like saying Wolfenstein can get a higher
frame rate then DOOM.

Kevin

by **The Riddle** » Sun, 12 Nov 1995 04:00:00

>> >Hi!

>> >What did you think of the "cockpit shots" on Microprose's GP2 web page?!

>> >WHERE HAVE THE FRONT WHEELS GONE?!?! HEY, TUNNEL VISION!!!

>> >etc.. etc..

>> It's nice to see the return to sound, well thought out opinions!
>> Judging a game by whether you can see the front wheels out of the
>>***pit is a bit like judging a book by it's cover. As for the
>> idea that Papyrus could produce a better F1 game.. please, give
>> us a break. Geoff Crammond is a F1 nut and as such is going to
>> produce a very realistic, playable game. If Papyrus produced a
>> F1 game, it would look like IndyCar racing with a new paint job,
>> tempremental A.I. and no curbs. If we were really lucky, it might
>> run at 20 fps in SVGA on a P133 and contain more bugs than you could
>> shake a stick at.

>> Fraser

>>Come off it, you make Papyrus seem like a bunch of hacks, at the moment
>they still have the best racing simulation in IndyCar Racing, even
>Crammond acknowledges this in an interview he did with Pc zone, having
>said that though apparently the new game engine will do 30fps in SVGA
>mode and 50fps in VGA. So all us Pc owners with relatively humble
>machines should be able to play it as well.

>In anticipation

> Mash

Mash,
I just happen to have a copy of that particular edition of PC ZONE and to
quote ( oh *** i hope i don't get sued)
"Reguarding Indycar, I took time out to look at the product and i thought
they had done a pretty remarkably good job. I think that the guys at
Papyrus are similar to myself and my team in that they are very
interested in their subject matter and also strive for quality in their
products" GEOFF CRAMMOND

opps, nowhere does it say " I think Indycar is the best ". Oh well, I
guess it was the September edition. Anyway, for my 2 cents worth,
Indycar has exellent graphics, which i wish i could see on a really fast
PC (I'm ONLY driving a 486) but for serious gameplay, and after all this
is what makes games great, the winner is F1GP by far!!!!. Now if only
F1GP2 can take Indycars graphics a few steps furthur, whilst retaining
the pure "driveability" of F1GP then we are truly in for a brilliant
game. Time to get a 586!!!!!. Also , Mash, did you notice there are no
rear view mirrors on the cars in PC ZONE's review. I hope these will
eventually be included in the game. Maybe this is why it's release date
keeps getting furthur away (PC ZONE said September , Bah!!!), shades of
F1GP there, though i think the real reason is that Microproses Virtual
Karts had to be released first, and given some "free time", before
Microprose releases the Car racing game of the decade F1GP2. For my
money, I think i'll wait for F1GP2 and put my Virtual Karts money toward
a Pentium.

by **Denni** » Mon, 13 Nov 1995 04:00:00

>Hi!

>What did you think of the "cockpit shots" on Microprose's GP2 web page?!

>WHERE HAVE THE FRONT WHEELS GONE?!?! HEY, TUNNEL VISION!!!

>It looks like they've done it AGAIN! The original F1GP omitted this
>crucial aspect, and apart from the improved gfx, it's the same story!
>Even the now mouldy 'StuntCar Racer' had visible front wheels!
>Come on Geoff!

>And Papyrus got it right YET AGAIN by having your front wheels visible!
>I mean, they ARE BIG ENOUGH!!! How do you expect us to judge distances
>when we can't even SEE where our front wheels are?!?! It's bad enough
>trying to judge where the car you're overtaking is, but to limit our view
>to this TUNNEL VISION is crazy! It looks pretty bad on my BIG monitor -
>all that space wasted on a HUGE***pit when we should be concentrating
>on what's going on around us!!!

You do NOT want to see the front wheels. Seeing the front wheels ruins
the perspective and is why the track when viewed from the***pit looks
so much better in F1GP than indycar. While you can see the wheels when
sitting in a F1***pit, they are well into your peripheral vision, say
45 degrees. Therefore, if you put them on the computer screen, it ruins
the perspective of the wheels in relation to the track and makes the
display look unrealistic. And in terms of your complaint that you need to
see the wheels to judge distances, this is completely untrue. You judge
where the car is by where the***pit is in relation to the track. How
often do you see the F1 drivers looking out of the side of the***pit
so that they can line the wheels up with the apex? How often do you need
to look at the side of your car when driving along the highway to make
sure that it is lined up with the median strip?? You do all of this by
looking straight ahead (or, more precisely, where your vehicle is going).
Similarly, I can place the car where I want it just as precisely,
probably even more so, in F1GP than indycar, despite the lack of wheels
in the former. You may be surprised to hear this, but Geoff Crammond does
actually know what he is doing.

by **Craig Hopki** » Tue, 14 Nov 1995 04:00:00

>Hi!

>What did you think of the "cockpit shots" on Microprose's GP2 web page?!

>WHERE HAVE THE FRONT WHEELS GONE?!?! HEY, TUNNEL VISION!!!

>It looks like they've done it AGAIN! The original F1GP omitted this
>crucial aspect, and apart from the improved gfx, it's the same story!
>Even the now mouldy 'StuntCar Racer' had visible front wheels!
>Come on Geoff!

>Not only that, but there's now a STEERING WHEEL in your***pit... I like
>the 'MOMO' touch guys, but if this is animated, it's going to look pretty
>stoopid when using our Thrusty Formula T1 wheels - TWO WHEELS?!?! Papyrus
>got it right by NOT having an animated steering wheel, as they were
>intelligent enough to realize that most true sim fans are going to be
>USING A WHEEL CONTROLLER combo.

>Hi!

>What did you think of the "cockpit shots" on Microprose's GP2 web page?!

>WHERE HAVE THE FRONT WHEELS GONE?!?! HEY, TUNNEL VISION!!!

>It looks like they've done it AGAIN! The original F1GP omitted this
>crucial aspect, and apart from the improved gfx, it's the same story!
>Even the now mouldy 'StuntCar Racer' had visible front wheels!
>Come on Geoff!

>Not only that, but there's now a STEERING WHEEL in your***pit... I like
>the 'MOMO' touch guys, but if this is animated, it's going to look pretty
>stoopid when using our Thrusty Formula T1 wheels - TWO WHEELS?!?! Papyrus
>got it right by NOT having an animated steering wheel, as they were
>intelligent enough to realize that most true sim fans are going to be
>USING A WHEEL CONTROLLER combo.

It is obvious that two distinct camps are forming here...those for
IndyCar and those for F1GP. You really cannot compare the originals
as they were of different times. F1GP was the best sim when it came
out and IndyCar 'pushed the envelope'. NASCAR Racing pushed it
further and it only remains to be seen what improvements have been
made.

Different teams obviously have different solutions or views of how
their sims should be. That is fine and diversity is welcomed.

HOWEVER, having just finished watching the Adelaide Grand Prix I hope
that F1GP2 is not too realistic. F1 is BORING!!! I turned the
telecast off before halfway to watch an old tape of the 1995 Indycar
Michigan 500 where the margin was 1/2 a car length after 500 miles
instead of 2 laps with the second car smoking like a chimney. At the
start of each GP the commentator (ours is Murray Walker) says that Spa

I agree that wheels are not absolutely necessary but I do prefer to
see them. My choice. They actually turn as I turn my T1 which is
pretty neat. I like to see the Goodyear sign rotate and become a
blur..My choice. Wing mirrors, on the other hand are essential!
The mirrors in IndyCar were not good enough. I know they are not
really like that but I need to know when Mario Andretti is alongside
me...like how they work in NASCAR Racing.

Speaking of realism...is the Mario Andretti driver in everyone else's
IndyCar just as bad as in mine?

Like everyone else on this newsgroup I can hardly wait for the release
of either sim. I can live with their differences and I am sure they
both will be worth the wait.

Cheers,
Craig.
**************************************************************

* Canberra, Australia *
**************************************************************

by **Brian Wong - SMCC Systems Engineeri** » Tue, 14 Nov 1995 04:00:00

> Now, a suggestion to Papyrus guys. I tryed to play Nascar Racing with the
> keyboard. The key combinations you can use in Nascar aren't very good. They
> can't be compared to the only key combination of F1GP.( a-z accelerate/brake
> , . steer left/right, ALT - SPACE shift down/up). It is also very difficult to
> keep the car on the track. Perhaps the problem is that the standard setup
> is really poor and I try to drive a Nascar car like a F1 car. However I
> suspect that the steering help in F1GP makes the difference. If this is
> the case, Papyrus should implement something like that. It's no point
> making the game too difficult to play with the keyboard: are they trying
> to sell joysticks? :-)

First of all, go ahead and change the key setups if you like. But that
won't help much, since thepoint of a SIMUlATION is realism. If you turn off
steering help in F1gp, the car gets very nervous. And NASCARs are big
heavy things with very little downforce, and they really are hard to keep
on the road.

Frankly, the keyboard is NOT recommended. I personally LIKE the fact that
the sim is very accurate and can be hard to drive - it's a challenge. (And
I use wheels!)

--

Brian Wong Systems Engineering Group (Servers)

by **WAYNE ALAN JONE** » Tue, 14 Nov 1995 04:00:00

no you can't since Nascar uses loads of keys for other stuff, Including A
and Z. and <>.

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