rec.autos.simulators

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 05 Aug 2004 07:46:58

It really doesn't matter what the details of that particular chase are. We
are really discussing the bigger issue of police chases, and in case you
haven't watched the news in the past couple of years, it has something that
people are concerned about. People have gotten killed for nothing. In
communities around the U.S., cops are being forbidden to chase cars except
under strict circumstances, and sometimes under no circumstances at all.
Why? Because of what some of us in this thread are talking about. Innocent
people have gotten killed or mutilated when cops go crazy chasing someone
who's often committed a non-*** crime. Stealing a car is a shitty thing
to do, you and I would love to kick their ass for doing so, but you don't
kill innocent bystanders in order to retrieve a ***ing chunk of metal. It's
a stupid, neanderthal approach to the problem.

And yes, the cops do get off on those chases.

David G Fisher

> How do you know it was unnecessary ? Can you prove that ?

> Say the guy had a gun and just popped off at some cops and/or public
> before this clip started and the cops took chase ? Say he just ran a
> minivan full of kids into a wall before this clip started, and then the
cops
> took chase ?

> You have NO idea about the full story. Neither do I, but then I'm not
> jumping off on some tangent either.

> > That's right. It's more important that the cops get back a hunk of
rolling
> > steel. If some innocent people (especially children---they haven't been
> > around very long, so they are of little value) get mangled or killed, so
> > what? That steel is definitely worth a few body bags.

> > The cops get off on those completely unnecessary chases.

> > David G Fisher

> > > Yep. I always get a kick out of so many times on the net, someone
> posts
> > a
> > > clip of incident x, and everyone jumps to criticizing, without having
> been
> > > there, knowing the full story, etc.

> > > From an *edited* (usually for effect) tv clip, everyones an expert
on
> > how
> > > things should have been handled, on whatever the clips subject is.

> > > > It was actually a reported Stollen car. That is why the Cops were
> trying
> > > to
> > > > pull him over

> > > > Darf

> > > > > He probably had a taillight out or something. The cops think it's
> > > nothing
> > > > > to risk killing innocent civilians if a "suspect" doesn't
> immediately
> > > > start
> > > > > bowing and scraping and***ing their boots.

by **David G Fishe** » Thu, 05 Aug 2004 07:56:49

All cops undergo psychiatric evaluations and intelligence tests before they
get a badge. Without ever having read the studies of the results of those
tests, when I was 13, I could of told you what kind of person usually
becomes a cop. Very, very easy thing to do.

For many of them, it doesn't have much to do with wanting to protect and
serve. Do some research and you'll find out what type of person joins the
police force.

--
David G Fisher

by **Mitch_** » Thu, 05 Aug 2004 08:43:20

The even bigger issue should be the lawmakers and the many moronic,
hypocritical and most importantly un-enforceable laws on the books of every
local, county, state and federal government. Cops are put in a situation
where they interpret instead of enforce. Where is Andy Griffith and Barney
when ya need em ;)

Mitch

> It really doesn't matter what the details of that particular chase are. We
> are really discussing the bigger issue of police chases, and in case you
> haven't watched the news in the past couple of years, it has something
that
> people are concerned about. People have gotten killed for nothing. In
> communities around the U.S., cops are being forbidden to chase cars except
> under strict circumstances, and sometimes under no circumstances at all.
> Why? Because of what some of us in this thread are talking about. Innocent
> people have gotten killed or mutilated when cops go crazy chasing someone
> who's often committed a non-*** crime. Stealing a car is a shitty
thing
> to do, you and I would love to kick their ass for doing so, but you don't
> kill innocent bystanders in order to retrieve a ***ing chunk of metal.
It's
> a stupid, neanderthal approach to the problem.

> And yes, the cops do get off on those chases.

> David G Fisher

> > How do you know it was unnecessary ? Can you prove that ?

> > Say the guy had a gun and just popped off at some cops and/or public
> > before this clip started and the cops took chase ? Say he just ran a
> > minivan full of kids into a wall before this clip started, and then the
> cops
> > took chase ?

> > You have NO idea about the full story. Neither do I, but then I'm not
> > jumping off on some tangent either.

> > > That's right. It's more important that the cops get back a hunk of
> rolling
> > > steel. If some innocent people (especially children---they haven't
been
> > > around very long, so they are of little value) get mangled or killed,
so
> > > what? That steel is definitely worth a few body bags.

> > > The cops get off on those completely unnecessary chases.

> > > David G Fisher

> > > > Yep. I always get a kick out of so many times on the net, someone
> > posts
> > > a
> > > > clip of incident x, and everyone jumps to criticizing, without
having
> > been
> > > > there, knowing the full story, etc.

> > > > From an *edited* (usually for effect) tv clip, everyones an expert
> on
> > > how
> > > > things should have been handled, on whatever the clips subject is.

> > > > > It was actually a reported Stollen car. That is why the Cops were
> > trying
> > > > to
> > > > > pull him over

> > > > > Darf

> > > > > > He probably had a taillight out or something. The cops think
it's
> > > > nothing
> > > > > > to risk killing innocent civilians if a "suspect" doesn't
> > immediately
> > > > > start
> > > > > > bowing and scraping and***ing their boots.

by JP » Thu, 05 Aug 2004 08:48:52

And your proof that this chase is one of your examples below is where
again ?

> It really doesn't matter what the details of that particular chase are. We
> are really discussing the bigger issue of police chases, and in case you
> haven't watched the news in the past couple of years, it has something
that
> people are concerned about. People have gotten killed for nothing. In
> communities around the U.S., cops are being forbidden to chase cars except
> under strict circumstances, and sometimes under no circumstances at all.
> Why? Because of what some of us in this thread are talking about. Innocent
> people have gotten killed or mutilated when cops go crazy chasing someone
> who's often committed a non-*** crime. Stealing a car is a shitty
thing
> to do, you and I would love to kick their ass for doing so, but you don't
> kill innocent bystanders in order to retrieve a ***ing chunk of metal.
It's
> a stupid, neanderthal approach to the problem.

> And yes, the cops do get off on those chases.

> David G Fisher

> > How do you know it was unnecessary ? Can you prove that ?

> > Say the guy had a gun and just popped off at some cops and/or public
> > before this clip started and the cops took chase ? Say he just ran a
> > minivan full of kids into a wall before this clip started, and then the
> cops
> > took chase ?

> > You have NO idea about the full story. Neither do I, but then I'm not
> > jumping off on some tangent either.

> > > That's right. It's more important that the cops get back a hunk of
> rolling
> > > steel. If some innocent people (especially children---they haven't
been
> > > around very long, so they are of little value) get mangled or killed,
so
> > > what? That steel is definitely worth a few body bags.

> > > The cops get off on those completely unnecessary chases.

> > > David G Fisher

> > > > Yep. I always get a kick out of so many times on the net, someone
> > posts
> > > a
> > > > clip of incident x, and everyone jumps to criticizing, without
having
> > been
> > > > there, knowing the full story, etc.

> > > > From an *edited* (usually for effect) tv clip, everyones an expert
> on
> > > how
> > > > things should have been handled, on whatever the clips subject is.

> > > > > It was actually a reported Stollen car. That is why the Cops were
> > trying
> > > > to
> > > > > pull him over

> > > > > Darf

> > > > > > He probably had a taillight out or something. The cops think
it's
> > > > nothing
> > > > > > to risk killing innocent civilians if a "suspect" doesn't
> > immediately
> > > > > start
> > > > > > bowing and scraping and***ing their boots.

by **Steve Smit** » Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:14:02

Geez, DG, I find my self in complete agreement w. everything you say!
Amazing!

The other side of the coin, of course, is about the chasees. There is
little but anecdotal evidence that an increasing segment of the population
(those on the bottom rung, with little or nothing to lose...which is why few
of these chases involve guys driving Lamborghini Muiras or Bentley Arnages)
want to go out in a blaze of glory, like in WW II movies, when John Wayne
would stand up and all but DARE the enemy to rake him w. machinegun fire.

However, this isn't some solipsistic yearning for a Raskolnikovian
punishment to fit the crime, this is more like a trailer-trash version of
suicide bombers, or Edward G. Robinson's Gottedaemmerung in White Heat ("Top
o' the world, Ma!"), or those Kevlar-suited bank-robbers that held the North
Hollywood police at bay with several thousand rounds of FMJ ammo a few years
ago. Is it life imitating art? Or just a hissy fit over being denied yer
15 minutes of fame? Who knows? Who cares? (I tried to do this story for
Car and Driver; THEY sure weren't interested.)

The real question is why are the cops so accomodating as to provide a
convenient Viking funeral for these wackos? It's the boys in blue who are
the enablers. Maybe instead of emergency driving procedures (sorely
undertaught at the academies), they should learn to get in touch with their
inner nihilists at Alanon sessions. (Nilanon?)

> All cops undergo psychiatric evaluations and intelligence tests before
they
> get a badge. Without ever having read the studies of the results of those
> tests, when I was 13, I could of told you what kind of person usually
> becomes a cop. Very, very easy thing to do.

> For many of them, it doesn't have much to do with wanting to protect and
> serve. Do some research and you'll find out what type of person joins the
> police force.

> --
> David G Fisher

> > >The cops get off on this sport because they get off on ***. Why
> else
> > >join the force?

> > To protect and serve. I refuse to let the few bad apples color my view
of
> > every cop in the country...

> > Eldred
> > --
> > http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
> > Screamers League
> > IICC League
> > GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80
> > Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71
> > Hist. +82.34 MoH:na
> > N2k3 rank:in progress
> > Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin
> > Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro
> > US East

by JP » Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:31:12

<snip>

Lol, yeah, the facts never do matter do they ?

by **fredrickso** » Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:40:10

It Tampa someone got killed during a police chase after they chased the guy
who was filming hidden upskirt videos at the mall.

by **Stephen F** » Thu, 05 Aug 2004 16:27:27

Loss of power steering and brakes is not exactly a life-threatening defect.
Trust me, even as a skinny-assed 16 year old I could haul my parents' 2 ton
Buick to a halt, and steer in generally the right direction, each time the
engine died (and this happened often with those lovely carb'ed and smogged
V6s).

Stephen

by **Eldre** » Thu, 05 Aug 2004 21:13:33

I'm just reporting issues that were brought up in the story I saw. Sure, you
were able to maintain a semblance of control. I've had an engine stall and was
alert enough to catch it before I hit the wall(I was in a offramp turn at the
time). But I wasn't(and likely you weren't) going 80+mph, with the added
stress of being CHASED, possibly in fear for your life, etc.

Eldred
--
http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Screamers League
IICC League
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Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin
Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro
US East

by **Stephen F** » Thu, 05 Aug 2004 22:24:44

You never met my friends back in those harsh Canadian winters in the 80s.
:-)

Anyway, we're on the same side of the argument. There was a 'copter in the
air, so the chase was unnecessary.

Stephen

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by **Eldre** » Fri, 06 Aug 2004 00:41:28

hehe...

Was that a police copter or a news copter? Question - let's assume a helicopt
is the only chase vehicle. The observers see the car stop, and see the perps
get out. By the time cruisers on the ground get to the location, the perps
could have gotten lost in the scenery. So yeah, you get the car back, but not
the criminal who started the whole thing...
Just playing devil's advocate.

Eldred
--
http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
Screamers League
IICC League
GPLRank -6.0 MoGPL rank +267.80
Ch.Rank +52.58 MoC +741.71
Hist. +82.34 MoH:na
N2k3 rank:in progress
Slayer Spektera lvl 72 assassin
Slayer Spectral_K lvl 38 Necro
US East

by **Darf** » Fri, 06 Aug 2004 02:14:18

> Darf,

> I'm not saying the police weren't justified in trying to stop the guy; I
> just thought the method used was a bit risky. He was a danger to all the
> traffic on the road at that rate of speed and he had to be stopped. I
still
> wonder if there isn't a better way than spinning the car out and risk
having
> it go head-on into the other lane. Now if the police had been able to
block
> the oncoming traffic well ahead of the car before tapping him.... yeah,
I'd
> say it was kosher.

> It's easy to armchair this incident now. In defense of the police, they
> didn't have the luxury of plotting and moving resources in the time they
> had, most likely. I wonder if it might not be best to just back off in a
> situation like this, and let the driver sense that he's no longer being
> pursued. At least he might slow down. Heck, they had him tracked by
> helicopter. It's not like he could have gone on forever, they could have
> grabbed him when the gas tank emptied.

> > Yep. I always get a kick out of so many times on the net, someone
posts
> a
> > clip of incident x, and everyone jumps to criticizing, without having
been
> > there, knowing the full story, etc.

> > From an *edited* (usually for effect) tv clip, everyones an expert on
> how
> > things should have been handled, on whatever the clips subject is.

> > > It was actually a reported Stollen car. That is why the Cops were
trying
> > to
> > > pull him over

> > > Darf

> > > > He probably had a taillight out or something. The cops think it's
> > nothing
> > > > to risk killing innocent civilians if a "suspect" doesn't
immediately
> > > start
> > > > bowing and scraping and***ing their boots.

by **Darf** » Fri, 06 Aug 2004 02:26:59

I also thought that it was a bit risky to spin the car, but I suppose they
have to weigh that risk up against the risk of letting him continue, which
would probably be a lot riskier. I have always wondered if they could fit a
Cop car with a forklift type attachment that could lift the rear wheels off
the road ( for rear wheel drive cars ) or a harpoon type device that would
penetrate the trunk of the car, allowing the Cops to pull the offender up
using the brakes. The Cops could always "accidently" aim the harpoon at the
driver, which would save the Tax payers a heap in Jail & Court costs :-)

Darf

by **Darf** » Fri, 06 Aug 2004 02:37:37

That IS totally pointless ..... the cops could have got heaps better footage
than that on the internet ;-)

Darf

by **Stephen F** » Fri, 06 Aug 2004 16:10:03

http://list.miata.net/miata/1996-08/1930.html

The Finns already tried the harpoon...

Stephen

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